Author Topic: Hand Planes  (Read 270166 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jim C.

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1014
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #75 on: December 27, 2013, 05:31:01 PM »
I've been following the amazing "Miniature Tools" thread by Art Rafael and was inspired to find something "miniature" to add to this thread.  Ralph's work is proof that good things do come in small packages.  With that in mind, I decided to do a post featuring Stanley's smallest plane.  There are times when I've added a small piece of molding or trim to a project and wanted to use more than just glue to attach it.  The options are limited, and for me, driving a nail or brad through the face of the wood, and then using wood putty to fill it is not one of my favorite choices.  It’s actually my least favorite.  On those occasions, a better idea might be to attach the molding with "blind nails."  This is simply a trick whereby a small shaving of wood on the molding is peeled back using a VERY SHARP chisel.  As the shaving is peeled back, one must be careful not to break it off from the work piece itself.  Once the shaving is peeled back, a brad can then be nailed into place and set slightly below the surface of the wood.  When the brad is set, the shaving can be pressed back into place and held down with a dab of glue.  This process is certainly nothing new, but Stanley came up with a little chisel plane (also called a chisel gauge) to help accomplish the task.  Stanley being Stanley, it was never a company to miss an opportunity to fill a perceived niche, so it came up with this:

Stanley #96:

As you can see, this little plane is about 2 ¼” long.  It’s useless without a chisel, while a chisel functions absolutely fine without the #96.  Still, it’s an interesting little gizmo that actually does work well with a sharp ¼” chisel installed.  The #96 was produced by Stanley between 1888 and 1922.  Those manufactured with a patent date, 4/10/1888, stamped onto their side (like the example below), are Type 1 models, produced between 1888 and 1906.  Unlike most of Stanley’s planes that were made from cast iron, the main body of #96 is nothing more that a piece of stamped steel that was bent into shape (much like the Stanley #118 block plane).  The lever cap holding the knurled slotted head screw is cast iron.  To be honest, I’ve never seen one of these little chisel planes at a garage sale or flea market.  They’re relatively scarce, and could very easily be lost at the bottom of a long forgotten toolbox, or buried in the drawer of “grandpa’s old workbench.”  I suspect that grandpa’s relatives have indeed found these and wondered what the heck they were and/or what they were used for.  Even their age alone could make them difficult to find.  They haven’t been manufactured in nearly ninety two years.  If you ever come across one of these I’d encourage you to buy it if the price is right.  Mint condition examples can be very pricey.  If you like the idea of using the blind nail technique on some of your projects, just remember that the #96 is not necessary to do so.  The same little shaving can be peeled back with nothing more than a sharp chisel and steady hands.  Like I said earlier, the #96 needs the ¼” chisel, however, the chisel does not need the #96.  This one might be better left to the collectors.

Jim C.                       
Our Go-To Type Study Member

Offline Jim C.

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1014
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #76 on: December 28, 2013, 09:21:16 AM »
I wasn't sure if I was overpaying $20.00 + 3.00 commission. I liked it so I got it.

My first plane that I bought was an old Stanley 4C.  I have a friend who owns a blade sharpening business. He trued the plane up the first time for me. Its been smooth as silk ever since. The plane was used, I think I paid $45 for it 20 yrs ago. It was a lot less than new at the time.

It seems to me that plane prices have come down from where they were 15 yrs ago.  Is that at all accurate, or was I just looking in all the wrong places?

Chilly

Generally speaking, I think that the prices of antique planes have dipped some in the last few years.  I guess that's just a sign of the economic times we have been living in.  Antique planes, like any collectible, are basically luxury items.  When times are tough, people stop buying and the demand for certain items drops and so do their prices.  Still, with that being said, I have found that top quality, mint condition planes have generally held their value even through the tough times.  When I buy a plane for my collection, I go for the VERY BEST one I can find, and rarely settle for anything short of NOS.  I'll pay more for that plane because I expect it to hold its value, but I'm not a dealer, and I don't buy them strictly as investments.  I've made the mistake of buying high quality "user" planes with the self imposed belief that I was buying "collector" quality planes.  When I encountered true collector quality planes, I quickly realized the error of my ways.  Most people know a "user" when they see one.  It's those planes that are in really good condition, but not NOS condition, that can fool you.  Those are usually the ones I've overpaid for.  Now days, I buy mostly NOS quality planes for the enjoyment of building a specific collection that's as close to factory fresh as possible.  I still buy "users" too, but now I'm a little more savvy, and I know that the prices of planes that are less than 98% perfect will fluctuate more than those that are factory NOS examples.

Jim C. (sorry for the long winded answer)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 02:16:19 PM by Jim C. »
Our Go-To Type Study Member

Offline oldtools

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1424
  • Keep OldTools alive by giving them a purpose
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #77 on: December 28, 2013, 09:16:01 PM »
OK! finally figured out what "NOS" was.. "(New Old Stock")
(too many different meaning listed in "Acronym Definition; NOS: Not Otherwise Specified: NOS: Network Operating System: NOS: National Ocean Service (NOAA) NOS: National Occupational Standards (UK) NOS") etc. etc...
Aloha!  the OldTool guy
Master Monkey Wrench Scaler

Offline Jim C.

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1014
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #78 on: December 28, 2013, 10:54:02 PM »
OK! finally figured out what "NOS" was.. "(New Old Stock")
(too many different meaning listed in "Acronym Definition; NOS: Not Otherwise Specified: NOS: Network Operating System: NOS: National Ocean Service (NOAA) NOS: National Occupational Standards (UK) NOS") etc. etc...

Thanks for the feedback.  Like I said earlier, after I write this stuff, one of the things I wonder is if what I wrote is clear to the reader.  Well, now I know that I need to do a better job and a little more editing prior to posting.  Enjoy the planes and I hope you'll forgive the writer!

Jim C. (learning as I go) 
Our Go-To Type Study Member

Offline OilyRascal

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2267
    • Facebook Profile
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #79 on: December 29, 2013, 06:59:35 AM »
OK! finally figured out what "NOS" was.. "(New Old Stock")
(too many different meaning listed in "Acronym Definition; NOS: Not Otherwise Specified: NOS: Network Operating System: NOS: National Ocean Service (NOAA) NOS: National Occupational Standards (UK) NOS") etc. etc...

We have a acronym dictionary on this forum to assist in the context of tools and our members:

http://www.papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=4357.msg28524#msg28524
"FORGED IN THE USA" myself.  Be good to your tools!

Garden and Yard Rustfinder Extraordinaire!
http://www.papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=3717

Offline johnsironsanctuary

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1908
  • Super Contributor and Geezer in training
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #80 on: December 29, 2013, 08:34:30 AM »
Jim, although I hear and believe what you are saying, for most of us, it is a moot point. My monthly cash flow does not have room for dozens if not hundreds of $500 or $1000 dust catchers. My tool collection is not worthy of you guys who have the means to have a whole bunch of Cabinet Queens for tools. I first looked at a Donnelly auction and was amazed at both the high prices and the fact that most of the tools were fresh from the hardware store around a hundred years ago. I try for the best condition at a price that I can afford. When I am in tool fondling mode, one of the things that gives me pleasure, is knowing that far more expert hands than mine used the tool before I got it. I seek to preserve, reverse abuse and undo neglect. Each of us has different motives, but as for me, I am content restoring my Model A Ford and have no desire for a Duesenberg with only 11 miles on it.
Top monkey of the monkey wrench clan

Offline Jim C.

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1014
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #81 on: December 29, 2013, 02:13:59 PM »
Jim, although I hear and believe what you are saying, for most of us, it is a moot point. My monthly cash flow does not have room for dozens if not hundreds of $500 or $1000 dust catchers. My tool collection is not worthy of you guys who have the means to have a whole bunch of Cabinet Queens for tools. I first looked at a Donnelly auction and was amazed at both the high prices and the fact that most of the tools were fresh from the hardware store around a hundred years ago. I try for the best condition at a price that I can afford. When I am in tool fondling mode, one of the things that gives me pleasure, is knowing that far more expert hands than mine used the tool before I got it. I seek to preserve, reverse abuse and undo neglect. Each of us has different motives, but as for me, I am content restoring my Model A Ford and have no desire for a Duesenberg with only 11 miles on it.

Hi John,

I think you have the right idea.  "Collecting" does have a different meaning for everyone.  The first two planes I ever bought were brand spanking new because I needed them for a project that I was working on.  They were much cheaper than the machine I "thought" I needed.  As I started getting the hang of using the planes, and seeing the results I could get with practice, I was highly motivated to buy more planes.  I started doing more research to see what planes were out there and of what use they could be to me on future projects.  I very quickly learned that a 1930 Stanley #4 in user condition was significantly less expensive than a new Lie-Nielsen #4.  I started buying old Stanley's because they were plentiful and I liked the idea of using old American made tools from decades past.  I joined a tool enthusiast organization and learned a lot more about planes from a few gentlemen who knew a lot more about planes than I did.  Over time, I struck up a friendship with a man who had one of the BEST collections of Stanley planes in the country.  Seriously.  He had them all, and most were NOS in their original boxes.  An amazing collection to say the least.  Well, he really educated me on collecting.  After having acquired a respectable array of planes that saw (and still see) regular use in my shop, I had sort of "hit the wall." How many user block planes and bench planes does one really need?  Well, with the help and encouragement of my friend, that's when I started drifting into the "dust collector cabinet queen" arena of hand plane collecting.  That was at least a dozen years ago, and I'm still at it today. I just love old planes.  If I see a great "user" I'll still buy it, but I admit that over the years my tastes have changed and with it, the contents of my collection.  Anyway, I sincerely hope that those who visit here don't come away thinking that it's just a thread for mint condition Stanley planes.  I started the thread purely for the love of ANY old hand planes in ANY condition, commonly seen, or otherwise.  Finally, I hope that the planes I post here will stimulate conversation, as well as encourage hand plane use, preservation, education, and collection.

Jim C.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 04:30:13 PM by Jim C. »
Our Go-To Type Study Member

Offline scottg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
    • Grandstaffworks Tools
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #82 on: December 29, 2013, 02:32:18 PM »
  Collector value is a funny thing.

   Nearly all collectors are "factory collectors".
 This means if Michaelangelo and Leonardo Da Vinci collaborated on a tool, it would have no value at all to them,  unless they ran a tool factory at the time. 
  Marked --factory production-- goods are all they want.

  They are mostly paint collectors as well.
 100% factory paint?
  High value. There are so many who want this, the value can become astronomical.
And yes it is the only value that holds up in a depression.
 All other tool values crash with the stock market, except factory paint.

   95% factory paint?  1/3 value and not an easy sell at that.
   90% factory paint? Zero value to the serious collector.
 Its all or nothing for the paint collectors.   Factory paint is everything!!

 A lot of this originally came from eastern seaboard guys who could go to any random swap meet on any random Saturday and fill 2 wheelbarrows with Stanley #4's, without even trying. Common tools were so easy to get, they had very little worth.
  So tools with a chip in the paint became completely worthless.
 They used to pile and burn transitional planes for fun, because nobody wanted them.
 It spiraled away from all reason after that.

 My tools are basically worthless on the collector market.  I don't even have any respect for factory paint.  They were merely assembly line dunked in a tank of paint and baked in the first place.  Not like careful hand work and fancy pinstripe work or whatever.
 Just unceremoniously dunked and baked, at pennies per hour, non-union, sweatshop labor. Some was even prison labor where men were forced to work at gunpoint, for nothing at all.
     And yet nearly all of collector value is attached to original paint or varnish. 
 
   Or as well known tool dealer Mike Urness  (the ratman) once said to me........
    Please leave a note in your shop that when you die, for the love of God, make sure your relatives ---Do Not--- call me!!

The good news is that this means that the rest of us have almost a clear field!
  We can have truly great tools for dirt cheap, if we hunt.
     yours Scott

Offline Jim C.

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1014
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #83 on: December 29, 2013, 03:21:50 PM »
  Collector value is a funny thing.

   Nearly all collectors are "factory collectors".
 This means if Michaelangelo and Leonardo Da Vinci collaborated on a tool, it would have no value at all to them,  unless they ran a tool factory at the time. 
  Marked --factory production-- goods are all they want.

  They are mostly paint collectors as well.
 100% factory paint?
  High value. There are so many who want this, the value can become astronomical.
And yes it is the only value that holds up in a depression.
 All other tool values crash with the stock market, except factory paint.

   95% factory paint?  1/3 value and not an easy sell at that.
   90% factory paint? Zero value to the serious collector.
 Its all or nothing for the paint collectors.   Factory paint is everything!!

 A lot of this originally came from eastern seaboard guys who could go to any random swap meet on any random Saturday and fill 2 wheelbarrows with Stanley #4's, without even trying. Common tools were so easy to get, they had very little worth.
  So tools with a chip in the paint became completely worthless.
 They used to pile and burn transitional planes for fun, because nobody wanted them.
 It spiraled away from all reason after that.

 My tools are basically worthless on the collector market.  I don't even have any respect for factory paint.  They were merely assembly line dunked in a tank of paint and baked in the first place.  Not like careful hand work and fancy pinstripe work or whatever.
 Just unceremoniously dunked and baked, at pennies per hour, non-union, sweatshop labor. Some was even prison labor where men were forced to work at gunpoint, for nothing at all.
     And yet nearly all of collector value is attached to original paint or varnish. 
 
   Or as well known tool dealer Mike Urness  (the ratman) once said to me........
    Please leave a note in your shop that when you die, for the love of God, make sure your relatives ---Do Not--- call me!!

The good news is that this means that the rest of us have almost a clear field!
  We can have truly great tools for dirt cheap, if we hunt.
     yours Scott

Okay Scott..... everyone is entitled to his/her opinion.  6 15

Jim C. 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 11:11:14 PM by Jim C. »
Our Go-To Type Study Member

Offline OilyRascal

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2267
    • Facebook Profile
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #84 on: December 29, 2013, 09:18:56 PM »
I've enjoyed the thread insofar, and hope that I might continue to do so.
"FORGED IN THE USA" myself.  Be good to your tools!

Garden and Yard Rustfinder Extraordinaire!
http://www.papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=3717

Offline Jim C.

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1014
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #85 on: December 29, 2013, 11:09:28 PM »
I've enjoyed the thread insofar, and hope that I might continue to do so.

Have no fear "Mr. Rascal." I intend to keep posting here about hand planes.  I'm glad that you've been enjoying the thread thus far.  I know that I can't please everyone all the time, but I'll keep trying to post interesting content.  Stay tuned......

Jim C.
Our Go-To Type Study Member

Offline Branson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3643
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #86 on: December 30, 2013, 06:38:48 AM »
Have no fear "Mr. Rascal." I intend to keep posting here about hand planes.  I'm glad that you've been enjoying the thread thus far.  I know that I can't please everyone all the time, but I'll keep trying to post interesting content.  Stay tuned......
Jim C.

Well, you've pleased me all the time.  I think Scott was on about the sort of collector values virginity more than usability, who views a good, used and usable tool with a certain amount of disdain.  Me, I'm certainly not going to pay collector price for a Stanley 96.  But if I find one that is remotely usable at a flea market or such, I'm sure to snatch it up.  Will I ever use this highly specialized tool?  Probably not really, but I'd like to try it out.  And there's enough of the collector in me to want to be the first kid on the block to get the whole set.  It's just that I like the potential use of old tools, and I don't care if they're virgins.  My 5 1/2 C has been broken and brazed back together and the tote has been replaced at some time with a post-war hardwood tote.  It works fine, and is one of my most used planes.  Zero collector interest, but 100% user.  My 7 C  and one #5 came from yard sales at a dollar apiece.

So?  I get to use them without guilt, and with great pleasure.

Offline Jim C.

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1014
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #87 on: December 30, 2013, 07:28:01 PM »
Hey Branson,

Thanks for the encouragement.  Like I said earlier, I know that I can’t please everyone, and I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion.  That’s the beauty of a public forum.  Comments and differing perspectives are often rooted in a diverse range of life experiences, circumstances and values.  We all have our likes and dislikes.  I still encourage everyone to post any hand plane content here as they see fit.  I’ll continue to do the same with the simple understanding that not everyone will always like what I put out there.  I have plenty of user quality planes that I value for exactly that reason..... They're sound, useful tools.  Still, for purposes of this thread, I like to post photos of clean, complete, unaltered, original planes.  I believe that seeing such tools in this manner lends clarity to those reading along, and hopefully provides others with less experience a better understanding of hand planes, their uses, and their history.   With that being said, I’d still like to see your planes regardless of their condition, age, etc.  I’m actually interested in seeing how you repaired your #5 ½.  For those who like rust and crust, I thought I’d do a post just for you.

Stanley #41 Miller’s Patent Adjustable Plow Plane:

Versions of this plane were produced between 1871 and 1897.  In its original untouched form, it’s probably one of Stanley’s most beautiful creations and highly prized by collectors and users alike.  As one might suspect, pristine examples command high prices.  It would have been finished with black japanning and brass trimmings.  It may be a little hard to imagine how pretty this plane was when it was new because the particular (partial) example depicted below is missing nearly all of its finishes, its fillister bed, nine of ten boxed cutters, and several other small parts that add to its aesthetics and utility.  As you can see, it has incurred some damage from abuse and most of its moving parts are frozen solid with rust.  A few of its remaining thumb screws have been distorted by a prior owner who thought that pliers, or some type of gripping tool with teeth, was an appropriate way to tighten and loosen them.  An unfortunate end to what was once a classic tool.   Perhaps in a future post, I could show you a complete #41 that’s in better condition.   If some would rather see more battered, used and abused, incomplete planes like this one, just give me a shout.  Thanks.

Jim C.         
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 07:38:47 PM by Jim C. »
Our Go-To Type Study Member

Offline Branson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3643
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #88 on: December 31, 2013, 06:53:17 AM »
It looks like one I might afford to pick up.  I see hours and hours of fun making it usable to at least some degree.

Love the beauty of the casting.  I once had a 45 with that floral pattern -- I think it was the second pattern of 45 -- not complete.  In a rash moment, I traded it for  something I can't remember. 

Sometimes one does have to resort to pliers, but when I do,  a scrap of leather between the jaws and the thumb screw keeps the pliers from messing it up.

Offline johnsironsanctuary

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1908
  • Super Contributor and Geezer in training
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #89 on: December 31, 2013, 09:28:31 AM »
Branson above +1. A beautiful tool that needs a lot of TLC. I guess I should start photographing and posting the three Stanley 45's that I have acquired in the past month. Thank you for pressing on in spite of my tool snob rant.
Top monkey of the monkey wrench clan