What kind of strange blade is this?

[garwein]

Found this in an old tool box, looks like a giant linoleum knife!

[Papaw]

That is a billhook, used in agriculture and forestry.
One of our members, Billman, is a collector of those.

Billhook- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billhook

[garwein]

Thanks Papaw!

[Billman49]

Hi
This particular one looks to be a French military pattern (serpe de genie), although similar were used in other European countries. Like many military tools they were often date stamped - many have 1914 to 1918 on them. Many French makers made them, but the most common are Saut du Tarn (Talbot's works also stamped Creuset), Bret and Dorian Holtzer... Theye were used as a pioneer tool, and also supplied for machine gunners to cut camouflage. Also used by communications linesmen to cut back trees and shrubs when laying telephone cables etc..

For more info see the Military Billhooks section on my website: http://billhooks.co.uk/photos-and-other-images/military-billhooks-1/

Trying to post images, but Server Timeout occurs each time.... Then I open the page and find they have posted - so below two images from my archives, Dorian Holtzer at Pont Salomon stamped 1917. Pont Salomon in Isère was a centre of edge tool making - many water powered forges in a number of villages.

See: http://www.valleedesforges.com/ or http://www.museedelafaulx.fr/-Pont-Salomon-et-la-Faulx-.html

[amertrac]

hmmmmm very interesting maybe I NEED one for my tool/weapon group   lol bob w.

[garwein]

You guys are outstanding! Thank you for the incredibly informative and fascinating post, Billman.

Some background on me:

I purchased a large toolbox recently with several older pieces in it, including this one. I occasionally go to auctions to buy/resell tools, and often other things I end up finding good deals on. My basement is completely packed with old and new tools, so I'm not allowed to keep anymore, only resell! :)

Anyway, thanks again for the information. I have listed it on Eb@y, but they don't appear to be very common in the States, so we'll see. If anyone here is interested in this piece, please let me know.

[oldtools]

Post some photos of your collection...

[john k]

I hadn't known of the billhook as a military tool.   In the US military a similar tool, or at least similar usage was the Bolo knife.   Heavy, made for clearing an area, chopping and cutting made easy.  Saw several on the bay just now,,,http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWll-U-S-Military-USMC-Village-Blacksmith-Bolo-Knife-Medical-Corps-Sheath-BOYT-/221201116626?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33809d2dd2....I'd like to own one, but not that bad!   Been to dozens of auctions and fleas, but never seen a usable Billhook. 

[Billman49]

Hi - with over 6000 billhooks, a few too many to post (and I have problems adding images anyway, but I'll try adding a few)...

The military billhook has been around since Roman days - used as tool to cut brushwood for shelters and fires, and later (post gunpowder) to cut wood to make gabions to a) surround gun emplacements, b) repair holes in walls made by cannon shots. Hence billhooks were common in the USA during both the Revolutionary and Civil War periods, and genuine ones from these periods do exist (together with lots of sold as being of this period, but actually much later or imports from Europe). It was a tool brought over by many European immigrants, but appears to have almost disappeared in North America in favour of the axe (it is still common in Mexico and South America). The Collins Axe Company offered one, but those that I have seen were stamped made in Germany (or made by their factory in Mexico)

The bolo was not the only US military tool, the Woodman's Pal, a sort of billhook, invented by Frederick Ersham in 1941, became adopted by the US Army Signal Corps during WW2, and in the USMC became designated the LC-14B Survival tool - (it is still being made and sold in the USA).

Below a few tools found in France in 2010, showing the diversity of shapes and sizes that can be seen in most European countries (5 o'clock in the bottom picture is a French miltary pattern, as above, minus its handle - note the thick tang, allowing it to be mis-used without fear of breaking, e.g. used sideways to hammer in tent pegs)...

[scottg]

Thank you for the pix Billman!! Love seeing these even if I can't heft them in my hand.
 
 So, I have a billhook question, and need your advise.
Billhooks were never popular where I live. (the mountains of extreme northern california that hardly anyone knows is here).   
 People (including me) have tried machetes for the jobs billhooks were designed to do,  but they are a dismal, total, failure here.
 We have exceedingly tough mountain brush that laughs out loud at a lightweight knife. They just bounce off.
 Occasionally you see someone trying a big heavy brush ax, but conditions are usually tight and you don't often have room to swing a 36" handle with a 6 pound head on it. So no one ever uses one for long.
 
 I think (or at least hope) a billhook may be the answer.   
How much does the average billhook weigh? How thick is the blade?
 I see many are in the 12 to 14" blade length so that sounds right. How much hook would you recommend?
 What is up with the pointy spike some of them have on the end?
And how about the square extended poll on the back that some have. Why is that there?

 I am not too expert at forging, but I can cut 'n grind like a monster, and want to try making some.
  But I don't want to totally reinvent the wheel here and any advise you can spare will be enormously welcome.
   
  thanks Scott
 

[Nolatoolguy]

Thank you for the pix Billman!! Love seeing these even if I can't heft them in my hand.
 
 So, I have a billhook question, and need your advise.
Billhooks were never popular where I live. (the mountains of extreme northern california that hardly anyone knows is here).   
 People (including me) have tried machetes for the jobs billhooks were designed to do,  but they are a dismal, total, failure here.
 We have exceedingly tough mountain brush that laughs out loud at a lightweight knife. They just bounce off.
 Occasionally you see someone trying a big heavy brush ax, but conditions are usually tight and you don't often have room to swing a 36" handle with a 6 pound head on it. So no one ever uses one for long.
 
 I think (or at least hope) a billhook may be the answer.   
How much does the average billhook weigh? How thick is the blade?
 I see many are in the 12 to 14" blade length so that sounds right. How much hook would you recommend?
 What is up with the pointy spike some of them have on the end?
And how about the square extended poll on the back that some have. Why is that there?

 I am not too expert at forging, but I can cut 'n grind like a monster, and want to try making some.
  But I don't want to totally reinvent the wheel here and any advise you can spare will be enormously welcome.
   
  thanks Scott

Check these out, great tools. Used em down in Louisana.

http://www.protoolindustries.net/products/woodmans-pal-military-premium-model-284

[Billman49]

Just spent half an hour answering this, and accidentally closed the window and lost the lot - wil try again later

[Billman49]

2nd try, part 1.... (breakfast time, 08:10 in the UK)

In the UK, billhooks were made in blade sizes from 6" to 12", 6" & 7" were generally used for spar making, and are known as spar hooks. The most common sizes were 8" to 10" (blade length is the chord from top to shoulder). Some makers also offered 1/2" sizes... Blades were forged from bar - either laminated (e.g. 'Steelheart' or 'Iron clad') or solid bar, approx 2" x 1/2", but latterly many are stamped from sheet material.

Forged blades vary in thickness from about 5/16" at the spine to 3/16" at the edge, but some patterns e.g. the Tenterdon are much thinner (3/16" to 1/8") or thicker, e.g. the Pontypool pattern (also used as the military pattern - 3/8" at the spine with a thickened nose). The Monmouth pattern has an even thicker, offset nose, up to 3/4" thick to add weight to the tip. Most baldes are double bevelled, but some (e.g. Norfolk or Herts) are single bevelled like a side axe or chisel.

to be continued, it's a nice day and I need to get out and do some work, or my wife will not be happy.....
The square projection on the back is a second blade, like an axe, used for chopping against a block (in French vineyards they chopped against the toe of their wooden clogs (sabots)). The shape and position of this blade varies widely from region to region in France and Italy, and less so in the UK (e.g. Leicestershire, Banbury, Nottingham and Yorkshire patterns). Some billhooks are just designed to cut on a block and have a straight or even convex blade (e.g. Block bill or Herts pattern).

to be continued....

[Billman49]

part 2 (afternoon tea break - 17.40 in the UK)

It is possible to buy decent second hand billhooks on ebay.co.uk, or ebay.fr (serpes or serpettes) or ebay.it (roncola or pennato) at a reasonable price, but check first of the seller is prepared to send to the USA. Postage costs can double the purchase price, but typically I pay the equivalent of about $40 to $60 including postage. If buying from the UK, go for well known brands such as Elwell, Brades, Harrison, Staniforth, Spear & Jackson  - modern ones by Carter and Morris are OK - but beware some new ones have short tangs and cross rivetted handles, and there are lots of Indian/Pakistan/China made ones about...

If you are desperate you can contact me by PM or via my website, and I'll dig out a couple of handleless blades and see what the postage costs are.... If you want to make one by cutting out of sheet, old cross cut or circular saw blades are OK, but a bit thin - you may be able to find some other high carbon steel (e.g. machine knives) that is thicker...  I have used old garden spade blades in the past... If using thin steel make the tang as wide as possible i.e. to touch the ferrule, and long enough to peen over after it passes through the handle. I drill the handles, and burn the tang in 90%, allowing the extra10% to compress the wood when the tang is cold (but do NOT quench, let cool slowly and it will remain softer and tougher than the blade). Another idea is to buy an old butcher's meat cleaver, and re-profile that...

[scottg]

Thanks so much for that!!
  I was thinking along those lines, but had no proof since I'd never handled any in person.
 Yes, 5/16" or so at the spine makes total sense. The flyweight tools never work, at least here they don't. People here get confused by jungle tools, where foliage may be dense, but its filled with water so speed and a sharp edge is all that counts. We have really tough hard brush to get though here. Many times you can't snap a twig the size of your little finger with your bare hands.  Sometimes its down to 1/2 that!  So mass will probably be the magic ticket. 

 Old cleavers would be good thing to look for, thanks for the hint!! I will start looking harder. Most I see are under 1/8" thick at the spine. 

   Your wonderfully kind offer of a couple old blades to rework has my heart in my throat.
  But I have searched for inexpensive postage across the Atlantic for 40 years, and hardly ever found a ravel in that noose.
 We used to at least have "sea mail" in the old days. It was ridiculously slow, but always came though, and it was cheap.
 It it seems to have gone completely away now.

 Burning in the tang is how I handle many (most) kinds of tools. There is no better way that I ever found. 
    yours Scott