Author Topic: What kind of strange blade is this?  (Read 14758 times)

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Offline Billman49

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Re: What kind of strange blade is this?
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2013, 05:27:15 PM »
Royal Mail - surface mail - up to 2kg £14.45 - about $22 - double that for air mail

see: http://www.royalmail.com/prices-2013#International Standard

Parcel Force globalvalue prices from £8.95 + VAT (20%) = £10.74 - about $16.50

see: http://www.parcelforce.com/send-worldwide/non-account-services/economy-services

Fedex Economy about £25 - say $38.....

Should get at least 2 or 3 blades in a 2kg package


Offline Branson

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Re: What kind of strange blade is this?
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2013, 07:39:50 AM »
Found on line:
"Revolutionary War era BILL HOOK FASCINE KNIFE A classic utility of the 18th century military engineer in his construction of breastworks and fortifications, this all original fascine (pronounced faseen) knife measuring just over 15 ¾ inches in total length with a heavy hand-forged iron blade. The leather washer grip with rat-tail tang remain intact and solid with period field use wear. A classily shaped blade presents the telltale carbon pocking characteristic of 18th century hand forge and an attractive rich patina with no chips or dings in the edge leave the impression the massive knife remains just as it was used in the time of the American Revolution. Note: The heavy Bill-hook fascine knife was used to clear camp sites of saplings and construct fortifications from the freshly cut foliage. The green saplings were bundled and bound firmly together in five to twelve foot lengths, trimmed square at the ends and called fascines. These fascines were used with large woven tubes also fashioned from saplings and filled with earth to form breastworks for fortification. (see: Valley Forge American Revolutionary War Museum collection.)"

By the American Civil War, three "bills" or fascine knives were issued by the Ordnance Department to each artillery battery.  These were standardized weighed two pounds apiece.  The 1861 Ordnance Manual give their dimensions:

"Bill-hook, (iron with steel edges) blade, whole length 8.25 inches, width in the middle 8 inches, near the shank, 2.7 inches; thickness, 0.25 inch; hook, 1 inch long; shank 8 inches long; handle (hickory) 7.5 inches long."

Gabions and fascines, their construction and use, are still described in The Elements of Field Fortifications, 1898, by J.B. Wheeler, published for the use of cadets at West Point.

 Fascines were additionally used to firm up swampy ground so a gun crew could work their cannon under conditions that would otherwise be too muddy for them to function as well as clearing the front of the gun emplacement for battle.

Offline Billman49

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Re: What kind of strange blade is this?
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2013, 10:47:40 AM »
Before anyone goes out and bids on these Revolutionary/Civil War era fascine knives, have a read of the pages on my website - at least three of those currently on offer on that well known auction site are most probably mid to late 19th century, European, in origin.... I have sent messages to most of the sellers, but strangely nil replies....

see: http://billhooks.co.uk/photos-and-other-images/military-billhooks-1/ and especially my notes at http://billhooks.co.uk/photos-and-other-images/military-billhooks-3/

Offline mrchuck

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Re: What kind of strange blade is this?
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2013, 06:47:22 PM »
Those "facines" can be seen around Benito Mussolini as they were a facist government.
Go check.
Molon Labe

Offline rusty

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Re: What kind of strange blade is this?
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2013, 07:30:10 PM »
> I have sent messages to most of the sellers, but strangely nil replies....

You are about do discover how hard it is to tell someone their cherished civil war artifact probably isn't half as old as they think it is ;P
Just a weathered light rust/WD40 mix patina.

Offline Billman49

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Re: What kind of strange blade is this?
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2013, 03:21:54 AM »
  The 1861 Ordnance Manual give their dimensions: "Bill-hook, (iron with steel edges) blade, whole length 8.25 inches, width in the middle 8 inches, near the shank, 2.7 inches; thickness, 0.25 inch; hook, 1 inch long; shank 8 inches long; handle (hickory) 7.5 inches long."

a blade 8 1/4" long x 8" wide with a 1" hook must be an odd shaped beast.... is the shank between the handle and the blade?? This is found on some French billhooks from the east of the country... Or does it mean the tang is 8" long?? Hickory is not best for a tanged handle as it is fairly hard - would the handle fitted INTO a socket?? Does the Ordnance Manual give an image???
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 03:37:52 AM by Billman49 »

Offline Billman49

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Re: What kind of strange blade is this?
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2013, 03:43:53 AM »
Just checked on line - 3" wide not 8" - that makes more sense... (sadly no image)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 03:50:17 AM by Billman49 »

Offline Branson

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Re: What kind of strange blade is this?
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2013, 10:59:08 AM »
  The 1861 Ordnance Manual give their dimensions: "Bill-hook, (iron with steel edges) blade, whole length 8.25 inches, width in the middle 8 inches, near the shank, 2.7 inches; thickness, 0.25 inch; hook, 1 inch long; shank 8 inches long; handle (hickory) 7.5 inches long."

a blade 8 1/4" long x 8" wide with a 1" hook must be an odd shaped beast.... is the shank between the handle and the blade?? This is found on some French billhooks from the east of the country... Or does it mean the tang is 8" long?? Hickory is not best for a tanged handle as it is fairly hard - would the handle fitted INTO a socket?? Does the Ordnance Manual give an image???

Width in the middle is in fact 3" -- typo on my part.  As yet I have found no image with dependable documentation.   I'm still researching and hope to have a documented image in the future.  The most educated guess is the style of the attached photo of a modern made bill.  Museum specimens from the Revolutionary War show a number of variations of this style, and the rather hatchet like edge on the back is more convenient for cutting things to length.  The Ordnance Department seems to have liked this kind of expanded utility.

It would be the tang that is 8 inches long -- that's the "shank" described in the Ordnance Manual.  Hickory is one of the most preferred woods for most striking tool handles here, and very traditional for us.  I have a number of tanged tools handled in oak, which would have no particular advantage over hickory. 

With any luck I will eventually find a photo of a documented original, or possibly an Ordnance Department drawing of the dratted thing.  So many tools were considered so familiar at the time that nobody thought to draw them.  Now they're obscure, sometimes in the extreme.


Offline Branson

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Re: What kind of strange blade is this?
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2013, 11:10:09 AM »
An after thought:  The Ordnance Department issued a book titled "Artillery for the US Land Service" in 1849 in response to an order to assemble an "organized system of artillery" from the Secretary of the Department of War in 1839.  It had an extensive number of plates illustrating the material, but, unfortunately, the sole copy available, and the sole copy that has been reproduced, does not include the plates.  The Library of Congress has a complete set of those plates, but as yet, I have not been able to obtain copies.

At the time this book was printed, almost all the materials used were produced at the Watervliet Arsenal or the arsenal in Washington.

Offline fflintstone

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Re: What kind of strange blade is this?
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2013, 04:29:11 PM »
the "modern version"

http://www.woodmanspal.com/

I have no REAL use for this but have always wanted one.

Offline Billman49

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Re: What kind of strange blade is this?
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2013, 02:58:21 AM »
The two genuine blades from the Parker's Revenge skirmish of 1775 both have a back blade and a socketed handle. Other, reproduction, blades also have a back blade, but the handle is made of two scales rivetted to an extension of the blade (as in knife construction). Tang fitting is very common in Europe, but so are sockets - the ratio is probably about 80% tang/20% socket - the socket tools usually being heavier and more expensive. All European military patterns are tanged, often with a very wide and heavy tang.

Tool handles in the UK are traditionally of ash, but imported hickory from the USA is becoming more popular. In Europe a variety of woods are used, e.g. curly birch in Scandinavia, red beech in France, olive wood in Italy. For a tanged billhook the handle wood can be any hardwood that is relatively easy to shape and drill, and that burns well when a red hot tang is inserted. Ash is used in the UK as it is the offcuts of handle making that were used - I guess in the USA, where hickory is the common handle wood it became the wod of choice by default as well...

It would be good to find examples of the genuine US military billhooks - those from Parker's Revenge are most likely from the British troops who were routed... Curious, because they do not fit the standard British pattern which is single edged and tanged, but as this was not introduced until the 19th century it is likely whoever raised the army in the UK just bought a local pattern from the blacksmiths/edge tool makers in the area. As a result, I guess there was no standard pattern until the 19th century either in the USA or the UK...
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 03:02:43 AM by Billman49 »

Offline Branson

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Re: What kind of strange blade is this?
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2013, 09:55:36 AM »
Thank you for the great information, Billman!   Are there any photographs of those from the Parker's Revenge skirmish of 1775?  I'm fond of looking at the evolution of tools.  Helps me understand the way they worked, and sometimes why they changed.

Hickory here is used for handles of striking tools primarily -- hammers, axes, and that lot.  Shovels, hoes, rakes and that lot are almost always given handles made of ash.  I find ash a very good wood.  I see no real reason for specifying hickory for bill hook handles, but the Ordnance Department had its reasons.  Maybe those reasons were as simple as using the off cuts from the handles of striking tools.   At the time of the first document listing Ordnance supplied tools, they appeared to be manufactured by the Watervliet Arsenal, so there must be at least a drawing -- somewhere.

It seems that many tools were made to regional standards.  Some years ago I was looking at a reprinted 19th Century Sheffield tool catalog -- it offered a variety of bills, all identified by region. 

Offline Billman49

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Re: What kind of strange blade is this?
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2013, 02:43:03 PM »
Copied from the web, they are available on my website at page: http://billhooks.co.uk/photos-and-other-images/military-billhooks-3/

Offline Branson

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Re: What kind of strange blade is this?
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2013, 04:15:35 PM »
And thank you again, Billman!  Studying them now...

Offline Billman49

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Re: What kind of strange blade is this?
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2013, 02:48:55 AM »
It seems that many tools were made to regional standards.  Some years ago I was looking at a reprinted 19th Century Sheffield tool catalog -- it offered a variety of bills, all identified by region.

In the UK, and much of Europe, regional styles of most tools developed, some of which survived many years, and into the 19th century tool makers' catalogues - we have Exeter and London pattern hammers and turnscrews. It is on the agricultural tools that the greatest variety remained, up to the post war years (mid 20th century) in some cases. Shovels, spades, hoes, axes, billhooks and sickles probably show the greatest variety - some makers listing up to 200 or more regional patterns. One French maker (Talabot from St Juery) in their 1935 catalogue showed over 250 patterns of billhook, and stated they had the patterns for over 2000 more, and would also make any other pattern to order upon receipt of a paper template or drawing... There is a video of French edge tool making, taken at the Bret works in Charavines - a 30 second shot shows the contents of a pattern store - rack upon rack of hoes, each with a paper label attached - there must be thousands of them...