Difference between a swage and hardie

[OilyRascal]

I'm struggling a bit with understanding the true difference between a swage and hardie.  Is it that a hardie is more of a pointed working area, and that a swage has more of a recessed working area and they both would be held in a hardy hole?

[keykeeper]

Typically, any tool used in the hardy hole of an anvil is called a hardy tool.

 Most everything I have read from the early part of the century refers to the hardy as the sharp, chisel like tool used to cut hot metal. But that is actually a "hot cut" hardy.

Just about any tool you want stationary to use can be made or mounted on a hardy shank. I've seen scroll jigs, scroll starters, hold down tools, etc. made to fit the hardy hole.

 It can be confusing.

A swage is a hardy tool with a depression of varying sizes, most usually round, although other shapes are sometimes found like a "V" or square depression. Used to form the hot metal into that shape. Most often used in conjunction with a handled top tool of matching shape/size.

Then there are fullers, which is the opposite of a swage, used to "fuller" or spread the metal away from the radius of the tool. Again, there are handled "top fullers" that match to go with the hardy tool portion.

Hope this helps. I'm sure the other smiths will come along shortly and correct my inaccuracies in explaining it....they always do. lol

[keykeeper]

Forgot to add that I have many books on the blacksmithing subject. If you like to read, I'd be willing to send any of them your way. Media mail is cheap, and you could just send it back once finished. I first started out by reading everything my local library had, then did the Inter Library Loan for $1 a book. Then I started buying the ones l liked that were good reference material. Some of the best ones are available pretty reasonable on the net.

[Mac53]

To add to the confusion- swages also come in other, non-hardy, forms, like the swage block or spring swage...but then again, I've seen a spring swage with a hardy shank before! (What does that fall into??).... There are also stakes you can add to the mix if you get bored of figuring out the others!

But to me, anything that goes into the hardy is a hardy.... If it is a bottom swage with a shank, I'd say it is a bottom swage hardy.

[scottg]

All true
 Most often used slang.......................
The hot hardie has a thinner blade and you hammer only hot metal over it to cut. Not quite all the way though, so as to save the tool.
 Cold cutters, similar, are thicker and work like a cold chisel upside down.

 Swages of all kinds are used to shape or deform metal one way or another.
 yours Scott 

[john k]

I am gong to muddie up the waters some more here.   Hardies are all tools that fit in to the hardy hole on the anvil.  Hot cuts, benders, and more, as many as 45 different tools have been done up to fit in the hardy hole.   Swages, can be bottom swages, and there are top swages.   For shaping metal, from tin on up.  Top swages usually have a wooden handle, tho they be struck tools not swung tools.  Bottom swages fit into the hardy hole, as been said they can be technically bottom swage hardies.  Then there are spring swages, that are usually fitted into the hardyhole, with both top and bottom all combined in one unit.   The swage block has been mentioned, a universal shaping block, which acts as a bottom swage, and if you see one its obvious why they can't be swung!   Handled but struck tools can also include things like cutters, and flatters, right, for flattening out things.  Shall we cover tongs next?

[anglesmith]

john K, I don't think you have muddie the waters at all! I agree with you and Keykeeper, the term hardie tool covers every thing used in the hardie hole. The Blacksmiths Manual by Lillico (an old,much reprinted English B/S book) calls them all "anvil" tools as apposed I guess to hammer tools used under a power hammer. Many more people seem to be confused over tinman's stakes, calling them anvil tools, when they were never designed to be used in an anvil! Hardies always have a straight shank never tapered!
Graeme

spelling

[keykeeper]

Thank you Graeme, for the backup.

I didn't get into flatters or handled cutters, as they aren't used with corresponding hardy tools, unless you count the face of the anvil as corresponding to the flatter or cutting plate as corresponding with the handled cutters.

It seems to me, that once a person starts smithing, there is a progression to learning the tools and their nomenclature. I never messed with much of anything other than a hot cut hardy and a bending fork when I started, then slowly eased into the others as operations started getting more complex in whatever it was I was making.

[OilyRascal]

I'm watching, reading, and learning......do not want yall thinking I don't appreciate the comments.

[Mac53]

I didn't get into (...) handled cutters, as they aren't used with corresponding hardy tools (...)

I could be mistaken, but i believe there are actually a few (and very uncommon) hardies that can be used with a cutter. One is similar to a turning hardy, but more V shaped, and you use the Hot Cutter down into it. Not sure what this is for.....splitting?

[keykeeper]

Mac53: By leaving out parts of what I said, you changed the context of it. It was actually...

I didn't get into flatters or handled cutters, as they aren't used with corresponding hardy tools, unless you count the face of the anvil as corresponding to the flatter or cutting plate as corresponding with the handled cutters.

What I was getting at is the fact that the tools I mentioned are used with other tools that don't necessarily have a hardy bottom tool.

The beauty of top tools and bottom tools is the endless combination of uses. A smith can just about combine any of them to move the hot metal into a myriad of different shapes or forms. Example: Top fuller/bottom swage for a dishing effect. Or maybe flatter w/bottom swage of desired shape for half round, half V, half hex, etc. The possibilities are endless.

The downfall of handled struck tools is that more often than not, it is a two person operation, unless you have three arms!

As for the tool to split with as you mentioned, my only concern would be the sharp edge of the handled cutter being dulled by contacting the bottom tool. Personally, I only use a soft cutting plate when splitting anything with a handled cutter. Sharpening tools equals time lost forging.

I once saw a contraption/jig used for splitting that mounted in the hardy and sat flush to the face with a cutting plate. It had a chisel holder mounted on an arm above the plate, that swung up/down. All the smith had to do when splitting is lift the chisel, put the hot metal under it, and proceed to split his stock. Kind of a hands-free splitting device, so to speak. Slick as hell. I'm going to build one, one of these days. It would also hold chisels other than cutting chisels, so the smith could use it for decorative punches, touchmark punches, etc.

[Mac53]

Ah, I see. I meant only to point out that there are strange combinations of tools as well (as you better explained with the flatter \ swage, etc).

The chisel tool you're talking about sounds fantastic... Where did you see it? If you ever make it, or sketch it up, I'd be very interested in seeing it. It sounds a lot like something I'd love to make for my shop as well.

[rusty]

>I'm watching, reading, and learning

Ditto, the Smith threads are always interesing :)

I just wish someone had tole me what a 12x14x4 swage block was worth before I passed one up for $30 -:(
(Hey, it looked ***heavy***...I didn't feel like carrying it across the parking lot)

[john k]

The contraption that uses a fixed bottom and sliding upper, be it chisel, shaper or etc.  is called a guillotine tool.  Did a quick google, saw a couple of likely things.   The sliding upper uses a pair of guides, one on each side, with it open on top to change tools,  so the tool has to protrude above the top plate.  Overall they measure figure  about 6-7 inches wide, and about 9 tall.  It usually fits into the hardyhole, or in a pinch can be locked in a vise.  Most guys make their own from 1/2in. plate.  They arc weld the assembly together, because it does take a lot of beating.   The splitting term, never heard it, is more likely called cutting, hot cuts or cold cuts.  A well tempered cold cut can be used to cut up to 7/16 round stock, a lot faster than a hacksaw.  Lay your piece on the mark, strike smartly, turn a quarter, strike again, about 3 hits and the piece can be separated. 

[keykeeper]

John,

The one I recall wasn't a guillotine. It actually allowed different chisels and punches to be held and changed out easily. I'll have to find a picture of one.

The guillotines are nice, but limited as to what specific tools you buy or make to use in them. Most noted one I can think of offhand is "The Smithin' Magician". http://www.blacksmithsjournal.com/smithin_magician/