Hand Saws and the Good Old Days

[Jim C.]

Hand saws.

[scottg]

Definitely a designers nightmare, making an iron rabbit plane.   Its going to be fragile 8 times out of 10.
Making a wide cutter in a small size is --really-- pushing the limit.
  The 140 was one of the most radical designs. Over 1 1/2" wide, only 6-7" long,  and a skewed blade to boot!
Why does it hold together at all??  The entire plane hanging on the far side alone. It does want to defy physics.
 You got to love that! 

 I would be scared to use one much, must admit.
 Like a really fat girl on really high heels, it might be working now, but you know it won't be pleasant sooner or later.  heehehe
 Plus, being as they didn't sell much in the marketplace, you are going to pay ~200 dollars for one in any kind of condition.   

 Here is my own take on a rabbeting block plane. A bog common #9 1/2 you can get anywhere for 10 bucks if you hunt.
I love the #9 1/2 more than any other.  No other block plane ever came close to being so popular.  It was made longer and sold second most of any plane design in history, closely following the immortal #4.
  Kind of like what they said about Elvis, 50 million fans can't be wrong.  But in this case, it was more because they made them for over 100 years basically unchanged.

 Natually, I had to go and muck one up, you know me...... heehehehehehehe

If you take on Leonard Bailey as a plane designer, you will lose. So, might as well go down in flames!!
   
 

Here is the funny looking blade that makes it work. Cutting out the plane's side walls with a tiny jewelers saw was easy compared to figuring this geometry and getting it to really work.  Getting it in and out of the plane is almost a trick.

  yours Scott

[scottg]

  Where were you when Stanley was designing the #140??

Cuts a rabbet on both sides too. So you can actually be left handed and allowed to live at the very same time.
 
But, of course, 'ol Lenny would have kicked my ass and took my name.
   
 He already had the Sargent 507 on the market. :)
 yours Scott

[Branson]

Dang! Scott!  That's quite an impressive rabbet you put together!  Wow.  I love 9 1/2's and I love rabbet planes.  Can't pass either up.  I have a carriage maker's rabbet from circa 1770 that I bought years ago -- about the same size, and rabbets either left or right.    Yours is the best advance in block planes since the addition of the lateral adjustment.  Kudos!

[rusty]

So....are we going to see this improved plane in Lee Valley's next catalog? *ducking*

Very kewl to improve a 200+ year old tool design, not to mention thinking of something no one in all that time thought of.

[scottg]

So....are we going to see this improved plane in Lee Valley's next catalog? *ducking*

Very kewl to improve a 200+ year old tool design, not to mention thinking of something no one in all that time thought of.

 Thanks for the kind words Rusty!
 I doubt Robin Lee is after my designs.  Maybe, but he never said anything, and knows exactly where I am. (a good friend of friends and an acquaintance of mine too).

 I like to consider what others don't. Not much into plowing old ground, what can I say.

 So among collectors there is this age old debate,
What was the nib for, on the back of old hand saws?

 Some say it was a sighting device and some say a nicker to start th cut and even some think it was there to hold a string to tie on a saw protector when traveling. 
 No one really has any proof of this, but it never fails to start a lively debate that occasionally deteriorates into a shouting match and then people get pissed when you laugh in their face for being an idiot to get so excited over nearly nothing at all. 
 
 My own hypothesis, the only one actually backed up by scant traces of old advertizing copy, btw.
 The nib was purely decorative.
 We are talking about hand saws with 4 or 5 screws when less would do the job.  Saws with intricately carved genuine apple wood handles and elaborate pictorial etched scenes on the blades.
  The nib breaks up the plain straight line down the back of the blade.



 Then I discovered, the only known prototype of a proposed marriage, between the great Stanley works and the equally great Disston saw works..............

 

   We never did the smileys working, so I will just type out..............WINK
 yours Scott

One day I just decided to throw some gasoline on the old fire.  heeheheheheeh

[rusty]

Kewl, a plane with a built in blade sharpener.....

[Branson]

So among collectors there is this age old debate,
What was the nib for, on the back of old hand saws?
 Some say it was a sighting device and some say a nicker to start th cut and even some think it was there to hold a string to tie on a saw protector when traveling. 
 No one really has any proof of this, but it never fails to start a lively debate that occasionally deteriorates into a shouting match and then people get pissed when you laugh in their face for being an idiot to get so excited over nearly nothing at all. 
 My own hypothesis, the only one actually backed up by scant traces of old advertizing copy, btw.
 The nib was purely decorative.
 Then I discovered, the only known prototype of a proposed marriage, between the great Stanley works and the equally great Disston saw works..............
  heeheheheheeh

You know, Scott, you have a wicked sense of humor.  Soon as I get at a sharp saw file, I'll show you the second prototype...

As for the debate, there are also those who say the nib was for packing the saws for shipment, tying them together with string...
You've heard all the arguments for some practical application.  They're all nonsense.  The tips of saw blades have a history of
decorative embellishments.  I recall a small saw, Swedish I think, from the 16th Century with an elaborate doo-hickey that made
the end look like a unicorn.   It's "chust for purty."  I've attached a couple of pics of saws from the 1700s that show treatment of saws
that are similar, one looks like it had a nib, and the smaller just has the dip in the back of the blade at the tip.  It gives a finished
look to the tip, that's all.

[scottg]

I love those saws!!!
 Holy Mackerel, Brason those are splendid!!
Whew, nice to see some really sweet saws I never saw before!!! (and say that 5 times fast, heh)

  At one point for a few years, Wayne Anderson, Brian Buckner and me were calling ourselves the Pep Boys of Old Tools.
It was pretty early in the introduction of new tools being made resembling the top of the old world tools and sometimes surpassing them.
 We stuck together pretty tight because nobody in the collecting world was ready for it at all. Fake, thief, weasel, were just some of the words they used for us.
 We were just toolmakers!! Wayne n Brian were just starting out and I was the old man of the gang, having already been working on tools for years. But when the three of us got together we inspired and pushed each other to new heights every month it seemed like. 
 In case you don't know, Wayne went on to produce --many-- of the highest art planes ever made, destined for the worlds museums eventually.
  Brian had the best design sense of any of us, but got burned out early. We miss him bad!! If you ever catch Roy Underhill fondling a small rosewood chair devil, which he odes often in his shows?? Its because Brian made it and gave it to him. The boy had an eye!
 
 Planes are the only things that sell for real money in the marketplace. Most tool collectors want planes alone,  and if anything else creeps into their collection, its by accident because they couldn't find more planes to buy.
  So if you want to make money as a modern art tool maker, planes are as mandatory as catholic school uniforms at a church school.
 
 I just keep plugging along doing what I always did. Not particularly concerned about what the market wants and making money in it. (good thing too, I never made any heehehheh) 
 Just still in love with all tools and always trying to see how far I can push it.  I never do the same thing twice, or almost never. When I do make the same thing twice I hate it, so there it is. No production toolmaking for me if I can help it.
 
 saws

 Here is my 1/2 size 10pt crosscut (for a little Prince). Its cocobolo and would fit a 6-8 year old like a glove.
 


 My dovetail saw.
 

 Then here is Brian's overhand rip. I found him the blade blank when he was thinking about it and the fabulous cherry burl  came from a fellen tree in his own backyard 
Followed by Brians bowsaw to take coping saw blades, in curly maple. (he made me one in rosewood neener neener)

last is Wayne's halfback. What is there to say?
  yours Scott

[kxxr]

gorgeous works

[rusty]

The bow saw is really nice, look at the grain in that thing. In fact they are all nice...

I love the thumb hole in the saw handle. I always used to get a blister there. Never understood why they made 90% of the handle fit my hand perfectly, and then made that part so awkward.

(Yes, I still use a hand saw occasionally, yes , it is sharp and cuts...;P)
(And it has my grandfathers initials on it..)

[kxxr]

One of the things I like about this forum as opposed to others is the informal nature of the goings on. Sorry that you don't like it. But, I, for one hope it doesn't change. I'm not a big 'rules' guy. I have no trouble tracking the occasional meander.
Let's hear some more about the planes.

[Papaw]

Jim, we are much like a bunch of guys hanging out in the shop. You never know where the conversation might lead, it is the nature of the beast. I can split the thread into parts if you wish.

[Jim C.]

Jim, we are much like a bunch of guys hanging out in the shop. You never know where the conversation might lead, it is the nature of the beast. I can split the thread into parts if you wish.

No need to.  Thanks Papaw.

Jim C.

[scottg]

Yeah sorry. Didn't mean to offended, Jim.
  I have the attention span of a fruit fly in a farmers market.

  Get me going and no telling what is likely to happen.
   yours Scott