3 new old Gators!

[lzenglish]

These are the only ones I own, since I donated my first, and only one to Tool Talk, a couple of years ago. Anyway, they are not an easy to find in the Western part of CA. so I feel lucky to have them. One H.S.B. & Co. , One Saxon, and One Hawkeye Crockidile.

Wayne

[bird]

These are the only ones I own, since I donated my first, and only one to Tool Talk, a couple of years ago. Anyway, they are not an easy to find in the Western part of CA. so I feel lucky to have them. One H.S.B. & Co. , One Saxon, and One Hawkeye Crockidile.

Wayne

Hi their, friend,
   How easy or difficult is it to find tools out West?   I'm in the southern states, and could find better tools if I were in the north eastern states. I'm curious what "made it out West" as far as tools.  Maybe that's a stupid question. .....    but, I'm not familiar with the mid or western states.  Obviously, the West has tools, just as the East does. But, I'm curious about brands, companies, and dates that tools were forged, made, ect.
   I know, that's an incredibly broad question, but, the USA is pretty large, and I only have knowledge about a few states as far as tool history goes (OK.  I don't know crap about any state....  I admit it.  It seems like a waste of time to remember a bunch of pieces to a puzzle that doesn't normally  effect me)
   Anyhow, the folks out West must have tools that the East coast is not used to seeing.
I have a Disston saw that has a CA logo on it.... I can't imagine where it came from ......  (not geographically...). 
     Well, all you "western folks," let me know what the tool hunting scene is out there.
cheers, bird

[lzenglish]

Excellent Question, and I consider you my Friend as well (Bird), Thanks! I live in the old Sutters Fort Gold Rush Town, near. Sacramento County. I have been to every place known to man, and woman kind to try and find old tools. Pawn shops, fleas markets, yard sales , estate sales, and on and on, ect. I have often wondered the question, of how, and why old tools landed in one place or the other. In your case, most ALL of the tool makers were originally from the East Coast, so I would think you guys are tripping all over them!Lol. Now in my case, I believe the Gold Rush, and Oakie Type of Migrations, etc. brought many out here, with their tools. So, to answer your qustion, I just do not know how, or why, the old tools were distributed thru out the Country, I'm just glad we (West Coasters) have a shot at them as well. Since I have been collectiong, I have built up a network of friends, and contacts, that have helped me find the old treasures, along with getting up at 4:30 am, and hitting all the usual suspected dropping sites. That is a very short answer to a very long question, so now tell me your story! iE. Are the pickens as good as I would think on the East Coast?

Wayne

PS. Before I get the hate mail, for those who "Do Not Know" who "Oakies were". They were a group of hard working Americans who were fleeing the Dust Bowl of the 30's, or 40's, and primarilally ended up in the Bakersfield CA. Area. Before that we had the 49ers, ect. and on and on! This is only my theory!

Take Care!

[amertrac]

Wayne, as far as easy pickens here in new england the wrench inventory is high but i seem to buy smaller wrenches from the south or middle states. the larger ( 6 to 18 in ) seem plentiful for most early new england  mfg. co. also pa. co .if there are more than 6 large wrenches at an auction they go for peanuts. i have probably over 100 wrenches in foot locker that would make sinkers for deep sea fishing.maybe we could make a deal for some of your excess   LOL  bob w.

[lzenglish]

Bob: It could be the smaller wrenches were the easiest to pack and haul accross the country, I just don't know. I do know you are a small (6 inchers and under collector as of late), and I think most of them were made for the bike industry thru out the country, I do not notice an a bundance of the ittle guys out here, and NEVER see any little, or large king Dicks for some reason. It is always a mixture of large and small, but Very Few Small Wrenches!

Wayne

[walker]

hiya wayne,any chance of your avatars phone number?
brian

[eddie hudson]

hiya wayne,any chance of your avatars phone number?
brian

I thought it was a Sumo wrestler

[kxxr]

I think a comprehensive study of how tools got where they are would be very interesting indeed and also very tough to research.

I think that prior to the 'industrial (henry ford) age'  the tools would have been distributed within a reasonable radius of where they were made. Outside of that area, they would have followed the historical migrations mentioned by lz; the gold rushes and dust bowl exodus migrations for example.

As mass production techniques flourished, distribution strategies had to follow. Once the manufacturing techniques achieved a level of output that would have surpassed local demand, distribution arrangements had to be made. If you could track down those arrangements and relationships,  you could possibly see why a certain brand seems to show up in large quantities in one area and not at all in others.
In any case, a book on the subject would make one hell of a cool project and would show the history of our country from a perspective not previously well recorded.

Right now, as we consider the possibilities, many of the folks who could provide the answers to the questions are leaving us at a high rate every day. If one is to write such a history, better get busy. It won't be long before the answers are completely lost to us.

[rusty]

>I think that prior to the 'industrial (henry ford) age'  the tools would have been distributed within a reasonable radius of where they were made.

You would be surprised how much distribution was going on far far before that era.

By the early 1800's there were already large wholesale distributors, tho most of them were also large stores. But even before that, ordering by mail directly from a factory or import house and having someone ship something to you via wagon was more common than most people think.

Bear in mind, we were doing things long established in England and europe, the only complication was a poor infrastructure and large land area.
Read about the Saugus iron works if you get the chance.....

[kxxr]

>I think that prior to the 'industrial (henry ford) age'  the tools would have been distributed within a reasonable radius of where they were made.

You would be surprised how much distribution was going on far far before that era.

By the early 1800's there were already large wholesale distributors, tho most of them were also large stores. But even before that, ordering by mail directly from a factory or import house and having someone ship something to you via wagon was more common than most people think.

Bear in mind, we were doing things long established in England and europe, the only complication was a poor infrastructure and large land area.
Read about the Saugus iron works if you get the chance.....

  Understood.
  I'm just saying that things took an exponential hop around that time and that a timeline with notations of that and similar developments would prove very illustrative. I will check out the Saugus reference.
  I should apply for a government grant to write just such a book. Huge amounts of government funding have gone down the rabbit hole for studies of far narrower appeal. I should be able to manage the project for, oh, let's say roughly a quarter million dollars. Where do I sign?

[lzenglish]

hiya wayne,any chance of your avatars phone number?
brian

Brian: I can see if "Fat Bastard" from the "Austin Powers Movie Series" ( MY New Avatar), wants to meet with you, or give his phone number to you, but I can not make any Promises! My old bosses sister actually cast the fat suit Mike Meyers is wearing, from a man in the hollywood area, so I may have some pull! I will keep you posted!

Wayne

[Branson]

>I think that prior to the 'industrial (henry ford) age'  the tools would have been distributed within a reasonable radius of where they were made.

Nope.  Oh, some were, but Early California manufactured nothing.  Everything here, except lumber and cowhides was imported.  Northern California was very early on the eastern end of the Pacific trade triangle -- California, Hawaii, and China.  The China Trade was solid by the late 1700s.  We shipped wood to China where it was made into furniture, and shipped back to Boston for sale in the US.  Boston merchants established a colony in Hawaii for their trade purposes.  The records of transactions in California (no cash here, just paper transactions) were scrupulously kept (I've seen the entry for the rental of three boats to John Sutter, Autust 1, 1839.)  William Heath Davis kept most of the early records.  He was born in Hawaii in 1822, the son of one of those Salem Mass. merchants.  The contents of the brig, Euphemia, March 1846, held goods from around the world -- Chinese tea, Spanish lace, and tellingly, a set of molding planes bought by Larkin.  Some sort of wood working machine landed about the same time, and was shipped from Yerba Buena (San Francisco) to Corte Madera (Spanish for cut wood).

The Gold Rush accelerated the import business, and those made rich by it were mostly those who sold tools and food to the miners.  Tools were needed for the rail roads that shipped goods from San Francisco to Folsom for distribution to the miners up and down the mountains.  The US Army was here, and whatever the army needed was shipped from back East.

Hamilton and Baker first set up a tent outside of Sutters Fort in 1849, and by 1900 was the largest hardware and notions company on the West Coast.  They too imported their wares from the industrial East.  Billings was their primary brand of wrenches by 1949.

The West has been on the map, importing its needs for a long time.  Any major manufacturer ought to be found here -- we've been a big market for almost 200 years.

You only *thought* Bird rambled...

[bird]

>I think that prior to the 'industrial (henry ford) age'  the tools would have been distributed within a reasonable radius of where they were made.

Nope.  Oh, some were, but Early California manufactured nothing.  Everything here, except lumber and cowhides was imported.  Northern California was very early on the eastern end of the Pacific trade triangle -- California, Hawaii, and China.  The China Trade was solid by the late 1700s.  We shipped wood to China where it was made into furniture, and shipped back to Boston for sale in the US.  Boston merchants established a colony in Hawaii for their trade purposes.  The records of transactions in California (no cash here, just paper transactions) were scrupulously kept (I've seen the entry for the rental of three boats to John Sutter, Autust 1, 1839.)  William Heath Davis kept most of the early records.  He was born in Hawaii in 1822, the son of one of those Salem Mass. merchants.  The contents of the brig, Euphemia, March 1846, held goods from around the world -- Chinese tea, Spanish lace, and tellingly, a set of molding planes bought by Larkin.  Some sort of wood working machine landed about the same time, and was shipped from Yerba Buena (San Francisco) to Corte Madera (Spanish for cut wood).

The Gold Rush accelerated the import business, and those made rich by it were mostly those who sold tools and food to the miners.  Tools were needed for the rail roads that shipped goods from San Francisco to Folsom for distribution to the miners up and down the mountains.  The US Army was here, and whatever the army needed was shipped from back East.

Hamilton and Baker first set up a tent outside of Sutters Fort in 1849, and by 1900 was the largest hardware and notions company on the West Coast.  They too imported their wares from the industrial East.  Billings was their primary brand of wrenches by 1949.

The West has been on the map, importing its needs for a long time.  Any major manufacturer ought to be found here -- we've been a big market for almost 200 years.

You only *thought* Bird rambled...

I think that's a compliment.... or at least recognition that I'm not completely crazy!
     It only makes sense that the folks with money in the west would ultimately become rich, not from gold, but by recognizing an entire new population that needed food, tools, and work.  In other words, those that have money, food, tools, and a "prestigious standing" can exploit all goods to the "poorer folks" of the community.
     I think tools were sensitive to trades.... in this country, means of transportation.... waterways (oceans, rivers, ...)  railways, and the advance in technology that became an epidemic that previous persons have talked about.  Previous to the "industrial revolution,"  but a time not far before then.
      We did not have a solid infrastructure as to how to remain mobile in this country without a number of problems.  Problems are fixed with tools, minds that study the overall structure of the modes of transportation in this country, and those that were, well, rich.
      I always assumed that persons who gained wealth out west managed to quarantine gold. I had no idea how wrong my assumptions were.  I forgot about a good business man who didn't "hedge his bets" on a whim that he would "strike gold."  The smart man knew that the "sure bet" was to control essential commodities .... rule the "supply" part of "supply and demand.'
     I am Bird, the rambler, and hopefully I haven't upset anyone.
cheers, bird

[pritch]

Hey LZEnglish-my aunt and uncle and cousins used to live out your way, in Rescue. And my dad was a bonafide Okie. His folks left Oklahoma in 33 or 34-when my dad was 11, and rode out to the promised land with Tom Joad and them in the back of a old truck. He remembers people holding up signs saying "Okies go home" and "quit stealing our jobs" and things like that. I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same. 

[Branson]

Hey LZEnglish-my aunt and uncle and cousins used to live out your way, in Rescue. And my dad was a bonafide Okie. His folks left Oklahoma in 33 or 34-when my dad was 11, and rode out to the promised land with Tom Joad and them in the back of a old truck. He remembers people holding up signs saying "Okies go home" and "quit stealing our jobs" and things like that. I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same.

I know Resue.  And Rough and Ready, and Red Dog.  My family came to California before the Dust Bowl, and I learned  a song from my mother:

"Hey, ya there Arkie,
If you see Okie,
Tell 'im I've gone on
Home to Tennessee."