Finding a chuck for my 'new' Champion Blower & Forge No. 203

[Twilight Fenrir]

Hello there!

I've been around antiques, and antique tools all my life... but Monday I'm picking up something that takes the cake, and I need a little help with it... After months of searching for a good drill press, I stumbled onto a fantastic No. 203 at an estate auction. With the exception of the spliced on electric motor, it appears to be pretty much original, and intact. Paid less than scrap value for it too :P

The only thing keeping me from putting it to immediate use, is that it doesn't have a chuck. At least, not one that I recognize. And I'm trying to find out what I need to add this baby to my blacksmithing shop. Right now, at the end of the quill, there is a cylinder with what appears to be a set screw going into it, and a hole in the bottom of it.

I've heard tell that Champion used a system called a 'Morse Taper' but I don't know much about it beyond it comes in 6-7 sizes, and it's a friction fit style chuck. Not sure if that's what I've got going on here or not though.

Here's my press, in all her glory!


I don't have an up close picture of the chuck receiver at the moment, I'll post one on Monday when I get it home. However, I do have a picture off an identical machine, that appears to be the same setup, complete with a chuck.


Any idea what I might need to make this work?
Any recommendations on what sort of chuck I should go with for metalwork? It will be used principally in steel, as a fixture in my blacksmith shop.

Thanks! :D

[keykeeper]

What you are seeing, IS the chuck on a post drill, that cylinder on the end of the quill. They DID NOT have adjustable chucks on them. The chuck is not for morse taper.

This type of chuck was known as the "Never Slip" chuck. Champion put them on all of their post drills. They take a 1/2 inch round shank bit (there was one other size available according to Champions catalog , but the measurement escapes me at the moment), that has a flat ground on one side of shank. This flat allowed the bit to be locked down by the square set screw on the side of the chuck.

Many folks, because of the scarcity of these type bits, will retrofit a 1/2" shank adjustable chuck to these drills, to allow them to use whatever bits they have. That is what you see in the other pic you posted.

If you think I'm just BS-ing you, just know I base this one the Four drills I have, plus the others I have sold or traded off.

For what it is worth, you can get Silver and Deming bits with 1/2" shanks and grind your own flat for the bigger size drill bits.

I have several original post drill bits, and often find them in boxes of mixed tools at flea markets and garage sales, rather cheap.

I also have one of the Jacobs chucks with the shank, that came on one of my drills.

[john k]

I have two post drills, and was lucky enough to find a set of bits, and an early chuck that takes modern bits.   Some have taken an old electric drill apart and cut the end of the armature off with the chuck, fit it to the 1/2 inch hole in the drill press.   

[Twilight Fenrir]

What you are seeing, IS the chuck on a post drill, that cylinder on the end of the quill. They DID NOT have adjustable chucks on them. The chuck is not for morse taper.

This type of chuck was known as the "Never Slip" chuck. Champion put them on all of their post drills. They take a 1/2 inch round shank bit (there was one other size available according to Champions catalog , but the measurement escapes me at the moment), that has a flat ground on one side of shank. This flat allowed the bit to be locked down by the square set screw on the side of the chuck.

Many folks, because of the scarcity of these type bits, will retrofit a 1/2" shank adjustable chuck to these drills, to allow them to use whatever bits they have. That is what you see in the other pic you posted.

If you think I'm just BS-ing you, just know I base this one the Four drills I have, plus the others I have sold or traded off.

For what it is worth, you can get Silver and Deming bits with 1/2" shanks and grind your own flat for the bigger size drill bits.

I have several original post drill bits, and often find them in boxes of mixed tools at flea markets and garage sales, rather cheap.

I also have one of the Jacobs chucks with the shank, that came on one of my drills.

Oooh, I remember reading about their 'never slip chucks'  in a scan of the original catalog I stumbled upon while researching... Certainly can't accuse them of false advertising then! Thanks for the info!

I suspect finding old bits will be difficult for me... Especially smaller ones... I can't imagine many survive with a half inch shank on an 1/8 inch bit :P So I'll have to put a modern chuck on it. Will keep my eyes open for the originals, now that I know what to look for.

Are there any manufactured arbor adaptors from this style chuck, to a modern? Or is it something I'll need to fab? I've got a few drills laying around... But the only ones I'd be willing to butcher for the chuck are smaller than I'd like on a press.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Come to think of it... the old chuck style would be much nicer for changing the size of the bit, don't have to sit and unscrew it for half a mile to go from 1/8" to 1/2 :P Just twist set screw a half turn and change! Better grip, easier changing... It's somewhat of a wonder that these aren't still made... But, everything devolves into more general purpose.....

I did find a 1/2" Straight shank to  1/2"-20 threaded arbor adapter. Would still have to grind a flat on it, but that's no big deal. Much easier than trying to fabricate one from scratch, and finding a good enough steel to do it from.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0007Q1Q1Y/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=3U2Y54AZPKI0D&coliid=I2OZXXJYXNYB8B

[Twilight Fenrir]

Okay, got it home... and it looks like the end of mine might have been modified... Because it is actually stamped into the side of it, 'Morse Taper No.2-no.3'

Any suggestions on what I lubricate the entire thing with? It's pretty well caked in oil, so it's been well used and well cared for. But is there anything special I should be giving it, or will gear oil, or regular motor oil work well?

[rusty]

My secret sauce for sludge is vegitable oil*. It cuts grease and old congealed cutting oil fairly well. Make sure you replace it with regular oil afterwards tho, it won't prevent rusting, there is a touch of water in it.

The nice black slime on the table is likely sulphured cutting oil, nasty stuff, if you get it on your shirt you just throw the shirt away ;P

The black stuff on the rack and gears is more likely (moly?) grease, oil drips off the gears, so someone probably got tired of oiling them and greased them instead...

(oil is better, cutting chips stick in the grease, but you have to remember to oil the poor thing once in a while ;)

Edit: I assume you aren't going to paint it, if you are painting it, don't put motor oil on it, strip it with alcohol, then clean with thinner, but paint soon after or it will flash rust ..

*Olive oil works even better, but it is a little pricey to be cleaning old machines with ;P

[keykeeper]

It is entirely possible that a larger press by champion may have been set up for morse taper bits. I'll have to look at my catalog when I find it.

Generally, though, they had the never-slip chuck in them.

I'll check and get back to you.

I have found a few of the small size bits, they did make them with 1/2" shanks. Odd looking little fellas.

[Chillylulu]

While researching post drills I found a helpful article here - http://www.beautifuliron.com/thepost.htm 

Chilly

[Twilight Fenrir]

My secret sauce for sludge is vegitable oil*. It cuts grease and old congealed cutting oil fairly well. Make sure you replace it with regular oil afterwards tho, it won't prevent rusting, there is a touch of water in it.

The nice black slime on the table is likely sulphured cutting oil, nasty stuff, if you get it on your shirt you just throw the shirt away ;P

The black stuff on the rack and gears is more likely (moly?) grease, oil drips off the gears, so someone probably got tired of oiling them and greased them instead...

(oil is better, cutting chips stick in the grease, but you have to remember to oil the poor thing once in a while ;)

Edit: I assume you aren't going to paint it, if you are painting it, don't put motor oil on it, strip it with alcohol, then clean with thinner, but paint soon after or it will flash rust ..

Vegetable oil, eh? o.o Interesting... If I were going to try and hose all the gunk out, I'd probably get a can of brake cleaning fluid... takes just about everything off pretty darned quick!

There's not a lot of goo on the press, only a bit on the flats of the gears, where the oil was allowed to mix with dust. Otherwise, it's pretty much wet with oil... as seen here!



No grease either, thankfully. It's just been getting oil the entirety of its life it seems. I added a little 80W gear oil here and there, and it runs a bit quieter now.

Also... why would anyone want to paint it? Look at the thing, it's GORGEOUS! :D I wouldn't touch that patina unless it's continued operation depended on it!

It is entirely possible that a larger press by champion may have been set up for morse taper bits. I'll have to look at my catalog when I find it.

Generally, though, they had the never-slip chuck in them.

I'll check and get back to you.

I have found a few of the small size bits, they did make them with 1/2" shanks. Odd looking little fellas.

Please do, I'm quite interested in learning that little tidbit. If you've got the page on the 203, I'd love a scan of it! This doesn't seem to be a terribly common press, I could only find one other set of pictures aside from mine... Here are a few shots of the chuck on mine:



On the large cylinder, it says "1/2 June 18 04" Which, I'm guessing represents 1904, not 2004 :P



At the bottom of the large cylinder, is a small part that sticks out that reads: "Morse U.S.A. No.2 to No.3"

I picked up a small benchtop drillpress at the same auction, and it had a Jacobs No. 34 chuck attached to a Morse No. 3 shank, so I popped it out of there and into my big one, lickity split. Fits nice and snug! Only problem is, the chuck won't close all the way :/ I've got it soaking in penetrating oil right now to try to free it up...

While researching post drills I found a helpful article here - http://www.beautifuliron.com/thepost.htm 

Chilly

Hey, that's some pretty neat information indeed!

[Chillylulu]

Umm, Twilight?  That picture that has the 2 holes looks suspiciously like a never slip. Do you think maybe you have a morse taper adapter in a stock never slip?

Chilly

[Twilight Fenrir]

Umm, Twilight?  That picture that has the 2 holes looks suspiciously like a never slip. Do you think maybe you have a morse taper adapter in a stock never slip?

Chilly

I was wondering about that... But the hole in it is bigger than 1/2"...I think someone machined it out to take a morse taper. And the part that is in there, is really in there, and there are no set screws in any of the holes...


Any idea how I raise and lower the work table? o.o I am baffled... I have a hand crank that loosens a square bolt on the back, that seems to be there to lock it in place. And there is a gear on the side with a pawl to keep it from dropping... But I don't see anything to crank on to raise/lower, and it doesn't move by just grabbing and reafing on it... There is a large (1.5"-ish) hexagonal indent in the sprocket on the side, do I need to fabricate a crank that fits into this, or am I missing something? o.o

[ron darner]

I don't recall ever seeing one just like this - but there are folks collecting old "post drills" and displaying them at various meets around here: The Thresheree, at Edgerton, WI (www.thresheree.com), the Badger Steam & Gas Engine show at Baraboo, WI, the Dodge County Power show at Burnett, WI, and so on.  If I can talk with some of the collectors, I can ask, and maybe get some hints.  Meanwhile, that rack on the column surely MUST be connected with the raising & lowering operation - look for any place where a pinion could engage it.  Gears with pawls may be part of an automatic feed mechanism, on  drills of this type.

[Twilight Fenrir]

I don't recall ever seeing one just like this - but there are folks collecting old "post drills" and displaying them at various meets around here: The Thresheree, at Edgerton, WI (www.thresheree.com), the Badger Steam & Gas Engine show at Baraboo, WI, the Dodge County Power show at Burnett, WI, and so on.  If I can talk with some of the collectors, I can ask, and maybe get some hints.  Meanwhile, that rack on the column surely MUST be connected with the raising & lowering operation - look for any place where a pinion could engage it.  Gears with pawls may be part of an automatic feed mechanism, on  drills of this type.

Well, I think I more or less got it sorted out... I had to oil the bejeezus out of it, and pull that sprocket off. After persuading it carefully with a hammer for a bit, I got it to move. That sprocket interacts directly with the track, so at one point there must have been a crank for it. I'll just pick up a giant hex bolt, and grind the shank square to fit the crank I have for the lock screw... The other problem, is most of the teeth are broken off the gear. It looks like it's a cast iron piece, so I can't just build them back up with my welder... I can move it with brute force now, so it's usable until I figure something else out...

[rusty]

Depending how in love you are with the machine, and what it is worth to you, there are folks on the vintagemachinery site who occasionally make replacement parts....
Some of them use nearly as old machinery to do it :P)

It is probably far too stressed out at this point to be weldable, might be brazable and machinable, but I suspect it is all filled with cracks from years of being not so well treated...