Tool Talk
Classic Auto and Motorcycle Tools => Classic Auto and Motorcycle Tools => Topic started by: 1930 on May 04, 2011, 04:22:26 PM
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I purchased this today, it was found under the seat of a VERY original Graham Bros. truck that sat for a very long time, its desc is ............VINTAGE GRAHAM BROTHERS / DODGE BROTHERS IGNITION TOOL KIT
Leather like hard case folds open, snaps closed. Case measures 10-1/2" X 5" X 1". Felt lined. "GB" logo on the front.
Includes 12 ignition wrenches labled for BOSCH, DELCO,EISMANN, NORTH EAST, REMEY and SPLITDORF, 1 screw driver, 1 file, 2 Allan Wrenches (1/8" and 5/32" and 1 set of feeler gauges. Nothing missing. Some slight surface rust, the case is weathered as shown is pictures.
Anyone have any ideas on its original purpose, I have a few hunches but I would like to hear someone elses Thanks
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I know nothing of its history, but it sure is a nice looking kit!
Wayne
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In the old days, many drivers were capable of minor repairs and maintenance on the road and knew how to work on magnetos and distributors. Such a kit helped.
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You said a truck and I am thinking tow truck?
Thanks,
Kirk
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Yes I know but why the Graham logo on it, was it possibly a graham mechanics or maybe a salesmans deal, ok I shpuld have put this in the watizits
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No it was a laundry truck, a panel wagon or panel truck
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Interesting story that I thought you might enjoy, I am hesitant to offer this as of yet since I am still working out the particulars so I may not be dead nuts on all of this info but this is going to be pretty close and if there is any interest to this post I will post the final outcome of my studies. Most of this sort of info wont be found on the internet but I have anough G,B literature that I havent had a chance to ever look at to help me along. I also have the benefit of some contact people who have helped me with this greatly. If anyone would like to correct me than I implore them to do so.
It would seem that the G.B originally offered conversion kits to other auto manuf in the early teens before they decided to produce an entire truck bearing their own nameplate.
Actually it was late 1916 early 17, they were able to start the company with profits from their sold Graham glass company and their special bottle making machine.
Ray Graham introduced the first 4 cyl tractor in Indians in 1910. The company continued with farm tractors and also kits to convert autos into light duty trucks, they invented a special rear axle and telescoping rear frame section that allowed conversion of the model T Ford chasis . Within the kit was a specalized extended rear frame and chain drive rear wheels also a cab and either a stake or express rear body. 350 dollars was the cost. IN 1917 they renamed their kit the Graham Bros truck builder and claimed that the cust could use this kit on any vehicle which might explain some of the wrenches but I am still working on this.
I dont know if these kits were only offered for Ford vehicles or if they were applicable to many other makes, .......I added to my theory already above.....I believe they were not solely confined to Fords but that was for obvious reasons one of their major sales.
I believe though as mentioned that the kits could be adapted and were adapted to most any make, I have a short list of what was offered within these kits and it included extensions for the rear portion of frame and other items but until now I am still not perfectly clear on some of these accessories so I would rather not comment to them yet.
I think that sometime in 1919 they began producing their own complete line of trucks with the GB nameplate........actually it was late 19........and in ...........April ............21 joined hands with D.B corporation to produce trucks using their drivelines. Aug of 1924 Dodge purchased 51% of Graham shares to supposedely work more closely with the firm.
I have read that the partnership only lasted two years ................actually it was roughly 4 years, April of 1926 the relationship ended because of the Dillon and Read buyout, the Graham Bros felt they had lost their upper hand within the company and could not do as they had originally planned within the company because of new owners......................and have also read 5 years, both of these numbers were pulled off line so it just goes to show that their is alot of confusion.
I honestly dont know .........I do now................at this point if Graham Bros stayed on with Dodge all the way up until 1928 but evidence in the format of corporations ledgers seem to hint toward the 3 bros. all having seperate positions within the company even after 1928 takeover. ..........I was wrong it would appear on all of this, the ledgars are dated mid 20s
It would seem that at some point in 28 Chrysler decided to drop the Graham truck line ( I dont know why yet ) ...........I still dont know if someone could enlighten me it would be appreciated, I have been told it was 28 but that the Graham name still showed up in some vehicles all the way up until the early thirties and there was an agreement made then or before then ( again still unclear on the actual date that Graham left Dodge ) that Graham would not produce trucks for a period of 5 years after they left the Dodge corporation, they broke this agreement in 1930 by introducing the Paige motor car line as a new truck line and were quicly corrected by Walter P. that it was a NO No and this is what caused them to turn back with building cars.
Back to the intent of the original post the ignition set is not neccesarily solely ignition after all, apparently because of Grahams spotted endeavours they used many different types of ignitions in their vehicles, they also used various makes of horns, ignition switches and other electrical devices, this kit was intended to treat all of these. Most likely manufactured late 20s most probabaly 27 28 and as noted above 28 would have been the cutoff point.
I have some questions now I was hoping some of you could help me with, I would appreciate it if you are uncertain of something please note that in your remarks, I have been doing Dodge pretty intently for a little while now and I have never seen another kit such as this and wont hold my breath that I ever will again so if it were to become damaged I would not be very happy.
There is a wooden tray that has been cut out to the shape of each individual wrench, some of the wrenches have pretty extreme angles and cause the need for extreme depressions within this wooden tray, the tray and the outer pouch are bonded somehow as one piece.
I am assuming if the outer case is leather than the GB logo is some sort of dye, what do you think. How was this stamped onto here?
What sort of treatment could be used to at least stabalize the material of tho outer portion of pouch, I am assuming that it is leather as mentioned but it is terribly thin and I know the 28 model A rumble seat used a synthetic material wheras the front compartment used a leather so could this possibly be a synthetic material.
I am assuming the GB logo is a dye stamp, any info on this process and the types of dye possbly used would be helpfull possibly to preserve this logo.
The wrenches are fairly clean but in some small areas show rust pitting, what might be the best way to once again preseve these while getting rid of or stopping the rust without damaging what might be the original nickel plating. To be honest they may not even be plated at all, I am not sure at this point.
The feeler gauge was rusted solid between its leaves, I was able to work it all lose with some WD but the actio is still not smooth, what could I soak this in to not only get rid of the traces of rust but also make its operation smoother, you have to remember that we are deaing with some steel that is pretty thin in some areas.
Here is a rundown of the wrenches that are marked
2 Remys
2 bosch
1 delco
1 for K.W. ( what might that be ??? any ideas???)
1 eisman
1 splitdorf
1 Northeast
2 unmarked
1 ...very hard to read first letter definitely C...second letter definitely O......3rd letter may be an N.....a couple of unknown letters in between and then what appears to be a TIC....Any ideas on what that is supposed to say. I think there is a FOR above all of that but cant verify for sure. Very weak print on this wrench
Total of 12 wrenches.
Any help with any of this is greatly appreciated
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1930,
K-W is the K-W Ignition Company
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:2CVUBu2vBcwJ:coildoctor.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/The_Model_T_Ignition_Coil_-_Part_2.22232904.pdf+k-w+ignition+company+history&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjBe0XlmWGA9pftJAbxDvNG19IUDcUcvDsEx8il4Ejpow_ArknFQuWTunl4EKbAkj_0yhsMExcID6tQZFkwtx2z2lozDuSEh7KB2ijpRq8oErhAtk_k_LVXbu5hyIkGevqwDMfA&sig=AHIEtbQIkfc6_tFQ97CYrLSmMm_GOhl5lw&pli=1 (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:2CVUBu2vBcwJ:coildoctor.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/The_Model_T_Ignition_Coil_-_Part_2.22232904.pdf+k-w+ignition+company+history&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjBe0XlmWGA9pftJAbxDvNG19IUDcUcvDsEx8il4Ejpow_ArknFQuWTunl4EKbAkj_0yhsMExcID6tQZFkwtx2z2lozDuSEh7KB2ijpRq8oErhAtk_k_LVXbu5hyIkGevqwDMfA&sig=AHIEtbQIkfc6_tFQ97CYrLSmMm_GOhl5lw&pli=1)
The one you can't read is probably "For Connecticut" which is the Connecticut Telephone & Electric Co.
http://www.mohicanmodela.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=126&Itemid=56&limit=1&limitstart=0 (http://www.mohicanmodela.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=126&Itemid=56&limit=1&limitstart=0)
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That is a big help Bus, Bobs model T parts is one lucky guy to have the equipment and the history of that equipment. As I was reading that article it came to me that I may have seen the K-W logo in the past and if I were to see it again I would prob. feel pretty stupid because something obvious would come to me.
As far as Connecticut, I should have guessed, I grew up there and now looking at the wrench and the spacing between unclear letter it is obvious that is what was printed. I have not yet read that portion of your link but will do so later and comment, I have some other things to change or add to my post above and will do so then. Thanks again
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Envelope says ( I cant read the first letters but I can read ilfillan Bros. smelting and refinishing Co. Los Angelas CA. I am assuming it is this company, what do you think Bus or anyone else.......
In the late 1920‘s through the late 30‘s, almost every west coast radio manufacturer had some relationship with the Gilfillan Brothers. What follows is a brief history of Gilfillan, and an attempt to expose many of the brands that were built, at least in part, in the Gilfillan factories in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Waukegan (Illinois). Gilfillan was arguably the best-known radio manufacturer on the west coast during the late twenties and early thirties. The Company‘s roots begin around 1912 when Sennet Gilfillan purchased his uncle‘s smelting business in Los Angeles shortly after graduating from Stanford University. Sennet was joined later that year by his younger brother, Jay, and the company was incorporated in 1914 under the name Gilfillan Brothers Smelting and Refining Company. In 1915 the company ventured into the automotive components industry (manufacturing products similar to Atwater Kent), becoming the first company on the west coast to manufacture and distribute products made of Bakelite. In 1921 the company was re-organized and shortened its name to Gilfillan Brothers. 1921 also marked the year that Gilfillan entered the radio industry offering radio parts to amateur radio operators and wireless enthusiasts. The company continued to design, build, and market radios through the late 1940‘s changing it‘s name to Gilfillan Corp. in the mid-1950‘s.
It mentions shortening of name is 21, in your opinion would that place this kit to prior or I suppose it a great possability that they had a huge overstock of these little envelopes that they continued to use.
It mentions in 1915 its venturing into the automotive components industry, in your opinion could they have been the manuf. of this kit.
Still working on years of service for the Ct ignition, I think by finding this sort of info I can pinpoint better the tool kits age
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Nice kit!
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Thanks Fatboy, Cmon guys am I talking to myself here,
Still working on this and typing my progress as I go along, maybe some of you guys can shed some light on what I am missing. Here is what I have.......by the way I have edited the Graham post above to show what I had missed, I was correct on most everything but I found some pieces to add.
Gilfillan Brothers Smelting and Refining Company.......that is the name that appears on the envelope, I am asuming that they are the makers of the entire kit since they also ........In 1915 the company ventured into the automotive components industry........So I guess it would be safe to assume that the kit was made sometime after 1915 and before .......... In 1921 the company was re-organized and shortened its name to Gilfillan Brothers. 1921 also marked the year that Gilfillan entered the radio industry offering radio parts to amateur radio operators and wireless enthusiasts.
I would assume that since the envelope is printed .......Gilfillan Brothers Smelting and Refining Company.......instead of just .......Gilfillan Brothers.......that the kit was intended for Graham vehicles prior to 1921 unless Gilfillan Brothers continued to produce the automotive components as well as produce the radios they are well known for.
Anyone here know anyone that would know more about this Gilfillan radio company, I need to find out if they produced radios as well as the tool kits.
I have found several adds for the Connecticut company online, date on the one Bus showed was 1920, none of the other adds are dated, anyone have any company info? If I can find out that the company went out of buisness before 1923 lets say than I can better pinpoint the kit.
I am assuming that the envelope was doubled as a buisness card now, in other words you could have purchased the feeler gauges seperately and that is the envelopes original purpose but as times were tight back then it also served as the company card.
I am assuming that the card was placed in their when the kit was originally purchased and whoever purchased the kit ( or didnt purchase the kit, maybe its an off the shelf item ) never used it as I dont see any noticible signs of wear.
If it was purchased ( the more I think about it the more my second theory makes sense ) and then put away for a good number of years and when rediscovered or discovered whomever did the discovering had a high respect for the history and was carefull to not lose the card.
The truck where the tool kit was found was a half ton merchant express and it appears was purchased by the Crystal laundry company in Oakland California. The second owner purchased vehicle in 1954 from same company and it would appear after talking with his wife that he is the person to find the kit but then just put it back under the seat with all the old yellowed laundry tickets. I have seen pict. of where the truck was stored and it would appear that the gentleman was more of a collector rather than a restorer, it would seem that he just stored these vehicles in makeshift barns and lean-twos.
Third owner puchased truck in 2007 and I have pict. of him pulling it out of the lean two. That is when the truck and its electrical/ignition set was found and featured in the DBC newsletter Feb.Mar 09.
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Some history here, but doesn't seem to mention auto or truck radios- http://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?company_id=2488
A catalog here- http://www.radiomuseum.org/m/gilfillan_usa_en_1.html
I can't be much more help than this.
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Thanks for that, you are a help.........I had someone on the AACA forum ( a 36 owner ) tell me just a couple of days ago that he never responded to my request for tool info because he thought that he could not be of much help. I told him that in all this time he was the first to offer any sort of a picture and although as it has turned out some of the tools he thought were original to his car have turned out to be incorrect we have still both gained something by sharing.
I will look into the sites you suggest and go from their.
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More on Google Books- http://books.google.com/books?id=OMqvQcHovzgC&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=Gilfillan+Brothers&source=bl&ots=b82iNTRPlh&sig=_sYeREiqq-wxZj2JLkQvWpZZico&hl=en&ei=se7HTe3KOsPL0QH509yLCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CF0Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Gilfillan%20Brothers&f=false
More here on who had dealings with them- http://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=77365&sid=fe093996940b6445eb20b7be04cca49d
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There you go, thanks for that, dont tell me everything now, I am enjoying myself too much : ) but thanks again
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I have been meaning to post this a few days ago when I finally was able to solve the mystery of this kit and this little wrench someone here so kindly sent me.
I am sorry but although maybe I should keep track I dont keep track of who sent me this little guy some time ago, will that person please step forward??
Anyway as it turns out by my purchase of this catalog the logo that is on the kit does not stand for Graham Brothers after all, it is Gilfillan Brothers instead.
Within this catalog I am able to see the kits that were manufactured by this company from 1916-1925 and on these pages I am able to identify every single wrench with certainty because of shape and most often even an identifying number found on the wrenches.
Catalog contains clear descriptions of the automobiles ( years included in many cases ) that each little wrench was intended for as well.
I have a feeling that Gilfillan Brothers took advantage of the Graham Brothers success by using a logo that is nearly identical to the earliest Graham logo but that was as is today common practice.
Maybe a little dissapointed that the kit technically has zero to do with any sort of original part of a Graham truck but not so much since in my opinion it is just as much a part of a 28 Graham as any other part of that truck since it spent the greater part of its life hiden underneath that seat with all those laundry slips.
Id like to know that Bus reads this so if you are than please make a note that you have done so, I know you are as passionate about these old tools as I am about these old cars
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At last we know what the little devil was made for! That wrench came from me. Glad to know more about it.
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1930,
I just read the history of of the Dodge Brothers in an old Automobile Quarterly. There is mention of buying into Graham Brothers in 1928. I suggest that you score a copy on Ebay. It is Volume 17 number 1. It is quite a lengthy article and followed up by many pages of photos of pre 1930 cars. It was printed in 1979.
Here is one for less than $10 total.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Automobile-Quarterly-Vol-17-No-1-/190665479100?pt=Magazines&hash=item2c648c53bc (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Automobile-Quarterly-Vol-17-No-1-/190665479100?pt=Magazines&hash=item2c648c53bc)
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1930, I read your post on Gilfillan Brothers. That's some good information I will add it to my logo page soon. Thanks.
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1930,
I just read the history of of the Dodge Brothers in an old Automobile Quarterly. There is mention of buying into Graham Brothers in 1928. I suggest that you score a copy on Ebay. It is Volume 17 number 1. It is quite a lengthy article and followed up by many pages of photos of pre 1930 cars. It was printed in 1979.
Here is one for less than $10 total.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Automobile-Quarterly-Vol-17-No-1-/190665479100?pt=Magazines&hash=item2c648c53bc (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Automobile-Quarterly-Vol-17-No-1-/190665479100?pt=Magazines&hash=item2c648c53bc)
Yes I have this already and its a bit of a mess, scattered innacurate and partial facts, thanks though
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At last we know what the little devil was made for! That wrench came from me. Glad to know more about it.
Thank-you again for the wrench
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What a cool story and a fun investigation!!
Research is like that. You never know where it'll lead.
I love the set too. Truly outstanding!!
Of course, I love little tools anyway hehehehe
yours Scott
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quote.......fun investigation..........Thats for sure, its the search that I enjoy the most
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Old thread, but running a Google search brings me here to this thread, so I'll pass along what I was able to ferret out after digging around on the web:
Gilfillan Bros., Inc., 1815 W. 16th St., Los Angeles, California
Makers of radios in the 1920s. First on the west coast to be able to manufacture the then-new "Bakelite". Manufactured automotive ignition parts (distributor caps, among other things) as well as small wrench sets for various distributors and magnetos. At some point got away from automotive and went "high tech", and became an industry leader in radar.
Logo stamped on the wrenches is a stylized "G B" inside a circle.
More information on the company: http://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?company_id=2488 / http://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=164411