Tool Talk
Classic Power Tools => Classic Power Tools => Topic started by: pritch on November 04, 2011, 09:04:09 PM
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I've been assigned a new building to build in Rock Springs, Wyoming. A new school, but first the existing school needs to come down. It was built in 1931, and as far as I could tell, this was original equipment:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/gpritch/tools/oldshcooltools001.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/gpritch/tools/oldshcooltools002.jpg)
This was part of the old style pneumatic controls for the heating system, and the tag says:
Air Compressor
For
Johnson System
Temperature Regulation
Type 3X3VB
Serial No. 12119
The motor has been changed, and I flipped the breaker and hit the starter and it just hummed, but the motor turns freely as does the compressor, and it will blow my thumb off the outlet just by turning the pulley by hand.
Only problem, I was being dumb when I was pulling it out. As a unit, it's quite heavy, and I put it on a hand-truck. It was in the basement and I had to bring it up 2 flights of stairs to get it to a door. After I bounced it up about 3 steps, the wire I had holding it the the hand-truck broke and it tumbled back down the stairs and broke off these 2 little brass things:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/gpritch/tools/oldshcooltools004.jpg)
I don't have any idea what these are for, there seems to be some kind of wick inside, coated with grease or wax or something:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/gpritch/tools/oldshcooltools005.jpg)
I wonder if a guy could find replacements?
As far as the electrical end, check out this old starter:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/gpritch/tools/oldshcooltools012.jpg)
Replaceable links in the fuses, with spares:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/gpritch/tools/oldshcooltools009.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/gpritch/tools/oldshcooltools010.jpg)
And instructions:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/gpritch/tools/oldshcooltools011.jpg)
I can't wait to get this restored and up and running!
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Oh yeah- I forgot to show you this gauge:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/gpritch/tools/oldshcooltools008.jpg)
Made for Johnson Controls by Jas. P. Marsh & Company, Chicago.
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That is a vintage piece of iron! I imagine it is heavy, made to last indefinitely, wow. I wonder if the air compressor will do more than 30psi tho? Too bad about the oil cups, not sure why they are on top the valve body tho.
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The brass oil cups are probably not replaceable because they are cylinder wall lubricators and function against the pressure in the cylinder. The good news is you can probably repair those. Bury them in NEW kitty litter after a good soak & wash with dishwashing detergent, and bake them a few hours at 300°. Then you bore the stem and the part you broke in the head to accept 1/4" copper tube, or 3/16 brake tubing and fit them together mechanically. When you have a good fitup take apart & reassemble with JB Weld 24 hour cure variety. So much oil has soaked int them there is no way solder will hold, and brass will be too hot & melt the castings.
You'll need to do some research on the wicking material and replace with the proper wick if you intend to run the machine.
Given the screws holding the sleeves to the crankcase it is a low pressure machine, probably under 100 psi.
It's also a constant run machine. A close look at the head assembly may show one set of valves was held open when the reciever reached pressure to allow the machine to idle over.
Hard to tell without seeing where it came out of, might have been a deadweight lever setting or it might have been a spring operated air governor.
The devices you call fuses in the starting switch are actually thermal protectors. Overcurrent causes the contacts in there to heat and spread apart opening the circuit. They self reset when they cool off and the machine restarts.
I removed an old Gardner Denver from the 20s from a factory that now lives at the Alexander Steam show. It was water cooled, constant run, and fitted out with a heat exchanger that heated part of the building in winter. That one looked like a cast iron mushroom with pipes coming from it.
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That is certainly a candidate for restoration!
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Yup definitl;y an old timer. I see stuff like that from time to time pushed into the back of equitment rooms because it is too heavy for anyone to bother removing it.
If you look at the paper label in the motor protector box, it's dated 1931....
As Aunt Phil said, the lubricators are special, you will probably have to repair them, I doubt you will find new ones anywhere, they are different than drip libricators, they they look similar.
(You might be able to thread the inside of the cup and the inside of the head and sneak a small nipple in there, depends how thick the wick is)
The plus side is, those machines are very simple, you could probably tear it down and put it back together in a day.
As to the motor, if it's single phase, it probably just has a bad capacitor...
(If it's 3 phase and humming, it probably has an open fuse/protector)
Oh, yeah, some of the old machines are able to be setup as vacuum pumps also...
>a low pressure machine, probably under 100 psi.
In as much as the guage will be pegged at 30PSI, I would guess it's intended for 20-25 pounds max, all those compressers were for was to make some air go through a tiny pipe to flip small actuators...
Very kewl looking design, looks like an old aircraft engine design with the split crankcase and sleeve cylinder...
(Speaking of kewl design: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MACHINE-AGE-STREAMLINED-AIR-COMPRESSOR-SPRAY-IT-INDUSTRIAL-ART-SCULPTURE-DECO-/140624555246?_trksid=p4340.m1374&_trkparms=algo%3DPI.WATCH%26its%3DC%252BS%26itu%3DUCC%26otn%3D15%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D3989426637894687795 )
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I've been searching the web, and I can't find anything on these at all. Aunt Phil, I get what you are saying about fixing those oil cups. The wick looks like a pipe cleaner to me, but I'm sure it's not that simple. How did that system work? Capillarity (sp?) action? I also wonder about heat dissipation on the cylinders, with out any cooling fins like you would expect to see.
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Pritch, hang onto your chair; There are near 3000 different types of wicking and felt and pretty much every one has different functions. It gets worse, back in the time machines like that were made people understood wicking and today most of those people are gone.
Generally the wick will pass through a tight hole, and the combination of wick and hole becomes a flow rate regulator. The science back then wes well understood. Today, it's been for the most part abandoned as a lubricating method, so little is known.
Those cups probably were pressurized by the machine, thereby negating any pressure differential as you'd have with a later drip oiler. If the oil cups were open to atmousphere they would become oil squirt guns. The wicking meters enough oil to satisfy the machine's needs.
Heat discipation on the cylinders probably wasn't a problem, because the machine rolled slowly and at low pressure. It also rolled 24/7 so it came to a temperature and stayed there.
The JC Thermostat systems did not consume a lot of CFM back then and even the newest pneumatics don't. JC was famous for 2 things, overbuilt systems and damn fine looking copper work with 1/8 tubing.
Do you have a compressor available to do some playing around with that machine?
Also can you post a top down shot of the head assembly?
Is the equipment room you pulled it from still intact?
What's the speed of the motor?
If you intend to use the machine for an exhibit, not much of a problem, but if you intend to use it to make compressed air and work it, you need to lube the cylinder walls.
Best case off top of my head is to get into old books like Audels, and start researching the machine. It will probably be there with a complete description and explanation of the workings.
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Love Audel's! I have two sets of the carpentry manuals, but more to the point, I have Audel's 1939 edition of Answers on Practical Engineering, with a section on lubricating. It might have something there, though this book is mostly about steam engines. You're almost certain to find something in one of the 8 volumes of Engineers & Mechanics Guides.
Audels also published a book that included blacksmithing that I would love to find, in case anyone comes across a copy, or is thinking of recycling a copy they have...
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I've the good fortune to have a set of Audels circa 1915 Electrical Guides, and about 50 ICS engineering books of the same era I came by when a retired Stationary Engineer's "family" saw no value to them. I'd have no problem saying a couple thousand of my hours have been spent in those books, and what I learned there is way beyond the value of a high priced education today. I learned the basics and the thinking of the men who invented and developed industrial machinery. It is much easier to understand "modern" machines when you have an understanding where it evolved from.
We live in a time of STUPID when the majority of people see no value in knowing history, and professors of Electrical Engineering know solid state devices but don't know what a variac is or what it does. STUPID is very expensive.
Pritch does your compressor have approximately 2.5" diameter pistons? If so I am fairly certain I know where its twin is sitting in a collection not far from me.
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I've been searching the web, and I can't find anything on these at all. Aunt Phil, I get what you are saying about fixing those oil cups. The wick looks like a pipe cleaner to me, but I'm sure it's not that simple. How did that system work? Capillarity (sp?) action? I also wonder about heat dissipation on the cylinders, with out any cooling fins like you would expect to see.
Maybe you could try wicking for a kerosene oil lamp as that was used to pull fuel from the bottom section of the lamp and the top was lighted and would stay lubed as long as it was exposed. Your application would be the reverse application?? Just a thought on my part! Cranky
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>Electrical Engineering know solid state devices but don't know what a variac
hehe...old man has a magneticly regulated welding machine, try figuring that puppy out....
How many people do you suppose still know how a magnetic amplifier works?
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I'm slow getting back to this, working out of town and all.
I would say, just by holding a tape up to the side of the cylinder, a 2.5" bore would be a good guess. Here are a coupe pictures top-down:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/gpritch/tools/oldcompressor001.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/gpritch/tools/oldcompressor002.jpg)
I think I'll try to get it in a working state, but no, I'll not be using it to run anything. That thought about using it as a vacuum pump sounds intriguing, though.
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Stumbled on this thread late...VERY COOL!!!
DM&FS
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WOW, a oldy but a goody.
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i too have compressor like the one illustrated in working order. wondering what its worth.type 3x3vb ser.no 13154 air compressor for johnson sys.
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The old saying applies: "The worth of a thing, is what the thing will bring." In other words, I don't think that there's any sort of established price for such a device, as there are far too few bought & sold. Even finding someone who wants it would not necessarily be easy. Most of us who have such old-timers around do so because we LIKE them, certainly not for investment purposes, or even as something to buy, sell, or collect in quantity. I suppose that there might be a sort of "working museum" somewhere that could use such a compressor, but most such places are intended to replicate life in an earlier time than this would suit. A modern compressor of similar capacity is probably cheaper and easier to maintain [and likely to be sold with an instruction manual containing information about suitable lubricants, service intervals, and so forth], limiting its appeal for actual workshop duty.
That said, it would be sad to see such a thing relegated to the scrapheap; it is in some respects a piece of history, and as such, ought to be treated with the dignity befitting its age. This forum isn't concerned with pricing or appraisals - but anyone subscribed can chime in with his / her opinion of what he / she would give to have it. Cost of shipping is likely to make it cost-prohibitive for anyone not relatively local to you, and having access to suitable transportation. If you're trying to sell it, it should be in the part of the forum dealing with such, not here.
BTW, we're always interested in pictures, and anyone interested in old tools will likely find someone with similar interests around here. If that's where you're coming from, why not join up?