Tool Talk
Woodworking Forum => Woodworking Forum => Topic started by: scottg on November 18, 2013, 12:41:53 PM
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Ahhhhhhhhh chisels
The more you know the less you can be sure of........ heehehehhe
Even from one company to the next nobody ever agreed on chisel names.
The long flexible chisels were often ordered by the patternmaker trade, for working long smooth parts of master patterns for casting. Lots of other people liked them too, so the name got crossed into a lot of other trades. Paring chisel is often used currently, but everything has been called a paring chisel at one time or other.
The only thing you can sure of is, the longest chisels cost the most so there are the fewest still around today. That's about it.
I have one socket chisel with a 16" long blade. It has a 10" long handle.
What do I call this?
Not for lathe turning because vibration will loosen a socket handle and it will fall off.
Lathe chisels always have tang mounts (one of the few things you can -mostly- be sure of) :)
Firmers and framers often mean the same thing, except sometimes classified by size. If the working part of the blades are 6" or under, sometimes firmers. Blades over 6", framers.
But only in certain places.
Millwright chisels are no different from framers, and nearly as big as shipwright chisels.
Shipwright chisels (millwrights and patternmakers used them too) are just massive in every dimension. They have what some people call "beer mug" sockets.
This means a regular socket chisel handle just falls in and wallows around, they have huge sockets! These chisels are extremely thick and heavy in every way.
All these names really just mean, "big chisel".
If I am carving a boat frame its a shipwright chisel, and if I am cutting barn frame parts........ well you get the idea.
Mortise chisels are often fairly short and at least 3 times as thick as they are wide, with a tang mount and a heavy bolster.
But sometimes they are really long with oversized sockets instead.
Sometimes they are only barely heavier than regular chisels, and then they are referred to as sash mortise chisels.
Since you can make a square hole with practically any kind of chisel (if you are careful) I expect every chisel might have been called mortise at some time and in some place.
Butt chisels have short blades. Portability was key in butt chisels. Many people agreed on that name for a couple hundred years.
Except they have been sold under many other names by various companies.
Stanley called them several things themselves, over time.
Chisels that have medium length (around 4" blades) might be the most common size ever made. Practically everyone in the chisel business made them since antiquity.
90% of new chisels fall into this category, and many of the worlds most famous woodworkers use(d) them too.
Regular standard cabinetmakers professional bench chisels, tang or socket, had 6" blades.
For around 150 years this seems to be one of the few things everyone agreed on,
because every company that made chisels called them the same thing during this period.
They were the perennial best sellers of chisels all through this time, selling more than any other.
But then styles changed and everyone went back to 4" blades as standard --bench chisels--.
This is another name that means nothing. A bench chisel is the one currently laying on the bench, that's it. hehe
Each of these chisels can be found under many different names across the country and across various trades. One guys framer, is another guys firmer, is another guys sash mortise.
And everybody calls everything paring chisel because paring wood is what every chisel does.
No one seems to be exactly sure when bevels were added to chisels. From Egyptian times to some time during the industrial revolution, all chisels had straight rectangular blades.
Then bevels started being offered some time between 1840 and 1870 (I think).
After 1870something everyone made them if you wanted them. This much we know.
A long bevel up each side of the face of the blade gets you into corners a little better and makes the chisel a little lighter in weight to pack around, and only reduces the overall strength of the chisel by a percentage.
My own guess, based on simple logic, is that someone was cutting bevels pretty early, maybe more than one company. But as in most things when it comes to woodworkers, it took a generation or more to catch on. Woodworkers of all kinds are notoriously set in their ways, and change comes slow.
I would look to Sheffield England as the likely start, since massive machining was their specialty around this time. Having ground plain chisels into beveled chisels more than once, I can tell you, you would prefer to have meaningful horsepower to do the job.
But never discount the French when it comes to embellishment and some innovation. They would be doing it the hard way, but they would do it just the same, if they wanted.
Never trust the Scots either. They got into embellished tools too.
The jury is definitely out, pending undiscovered information.
Chisel handles could often be ordered when you ordered your chisels.
So if you wanted smooth round ends because you were going to primarily push the tool by hand, you could get them. Leather stacked ends were supposed to be a crossover for hand or light mallet work either one. Steel or brass rings, or solid caps, on top to the handle, could be had for heavier mallet work.
You could order any theses handles mounted to any kind of chisel.
"Pigsticker" mortise chisels (the name often given to the super heavy straight tang chisels)
were meant to be pounded straight down into wood with wild abandon. These chisels almost always have straight plain oval wood handles. As if a section of sledge hammer handle was lopped off and mounted.
Most pounded chisel of all? With the plainest handles? Go figure.
Many people surmise that these handles would be pounded to perdition quickly, so no need to embellish them. And yet probably thousands are still around with decent handles.
Octagonal Spanish boxwood with fancy ends were at the top of the price range early on.
You could order them for any chisel "set".
(Another word that means nothing. Chisel sets came from 3 chisels to probably 88 chisels)
You could get them alone and mount them to your own chisels too, if you wanted.
English or Turkish boxwood was also available, and sometimes sold as Spanish boxwood to the uninformed.
Then when fashion changed, suddenly all boxwood was "English boxwood" because it had the fashionable name. Could have come from Morocco by that time, for all anyone really knew.
And Moroccan boxwood might have been stronger and prettier too.
But if "English boxwood" had the fashionable name, that was what was advertized.
A large percentage of other wood chisel handles were dyed bright yellow in imitation of boxwood, for generations. The practice lasted as long as people remembered what boxwood was all about.
Rosewood, mostly meaning Indian rosewood, was available as soon as regular trade with India was established. Still is available.
Other types of rosewood were sometimes substituted, and sometimes the "substitutes" were actually stronger than Indian rosewood.
Honduran rosewood, for instance, is very hard strong wood.
Brazilian rosewood has been essentially wiped out, but musical instrument makers
(and local farmers just clearing land for corn) are more responsible for that.
When it comes to chisels...................
Ain't nobody don't know nuthin no more.
yours Scott
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To sum up here, the only terms that you can count on as a constant in all of Chiseldom is tang chisel and socket chisel.
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Thanks Scott. A great musing that goes a along way to unconfused a non woodworker! But you didn't mention the all steel (wood) chisel that was made by the tool companies and the local blacksmiths. I think these were used for "rough" house frame building?
Graeme
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anglesmith, I think they called those chisels a slick, at least in this area!!!
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Slicks were typically 3-4 in wide with a long handle. They were primarily used in shipbuilding, but other trades also used them. There were some slicks made that were only 2 or 2 1/2 in. wide and some even wider than 4 in., although not common.
Another characteristic of a slick is that the socket was usually bent up slightly away from the back of the blade so that as it was pushed forward, the users hand(s) would be up away from the workpiece.
Slicks were made to be pushed, not struck. They were a tool designed to smooth a timber.
In a shipyard, it was required that a screw be inserted in the hole in the socket so that the handle and the blade couldn't part company. Apparently more than one workman had lost a toe when the sharp end unexpectedly departed from the handle.
Mike
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I found a solid steel chisel in the 1936 Buck & Hickman catalogue. They called it a "wagon Builder's" chisel, it was available in six sizes from 1 1/4" to 2".
Graeme
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heh..I thought wagons were more or less square...wonder what you would chisel on a wagon ?
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Wow!! Thank you for sharing your knowledge Scott, very interesting!! Now when I look at chisels, I can appreciate the differences, The more I learn, the more interesting it gets...
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Slicks were typically 3-4 in wide with a long handle. They were primarily used in shipbuilding, but other trades also used them. There were some slicks made that were only 2 or 2 1/2 in. wide and some even wider than 4 in., although not common.
Another characteristic of a slick is that the socket was usually bent up slightly away from the back of the blade so that as it was pushed forward, the users hand(s) would be up away from the workpiece.
Slicks were made to be pushed, not struck. They were a tool designed to smooth a timber.
In a shipyard, it was required that a screw be inserted in the hole in the socket so that the handle and the blade couldn't part company. Apparently more than one workman had lost a toe when the sharp end unexpectedly departed from the handle.
Mike
Again, an example of different vernacular at play. I know blacksmiths that are making what they call slicks, entirely of steel, and sell them regularly to folks doing log construction.
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>They have what some people call "beer mug" sockets.
No no no, Scott. Those are beer *barrel* sockets/handles. Everybody knows this is correct because I and one other person calls them that.
Heh heh.
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heh..I thought wagons were more or less square...wonder what you would chisel on a wagon ?
Mortise and tenon joints. There are many mortise and tenon joints in the simplest wagon or cart. So a mortising chisel is pretty essential, and some chisel to pare the tenons as needed. I use mortise chisels and firmers in repairing old wagons and carriages.
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I found a solid steel chisel in the 1936 Buck & Hickman catalogue. They called it a "wagon Builder's" chisel, it was available in six sizes from 1 1/4" to 2".
Graeme
They've been around much, much longer than that. Eric Sloane, in A Museum of Early American Tools illustrates three. One a gooseneck, dated as circa 1750, one a bowl gouge dated circa 1680, and the third a gouge dated circa 1675. He notes in the text that many of the mortising chisels were at first all metal. There's also a drawing of an all metal slick as a specialty tool of the 1800s.
I've got three or four all metal chisels that I've stumbled across through the years.
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Tony Seo (who lives in Pa) is always finding blacksmith made solid wrought iron (with a laminated steel edge) chisels and gouges. Hand made from the early days.
I bet he finds 3 or 4 a year. Of course he looks for such things.
Many tool companies made all steel chisels down through time, and I would kiss a pig if some don't still.
I saw a vinyl bag marked Craftsman with 3 of them in it, at a yard sale recently. Sure didn't look old to me.
I have 3 or 5 around here myself. These are made for demolition/rough construction mostly. I have one beauty by Stanley. Its a piece of 3/4" hex bar stock, about 18" long. On the end it has a 3" chisel blade that is pretty thin. It was made to chop off the tongues of flooring for repairs or demolition.
The long bar so you don't have to work off your knees all the time.
I bought this chisel new from the great Silvo Hardware co in the early 70's.
I could have bought certain other NOS tools they still had for sale on the shelf then, that have become very valuable now.
But I was young, and besides nobody knew what would become valuable later, and what would still be worth the 4 dollars I paid for the floor chisel, 40 years later. heehehehe
I did get some dowel augers (drills an exact size hole for dowels and works with a brace in a dowel jig), and a #2 Philips driver with a brace shank on it.
Both these are practically unheard of now. Not valuable but very rare.
You would think I would have bought long thin patternmaker crank neck chisels with boxwood handles, but Nooooooooooooooo.
I keep a thick section 1" all steel chisel in my truck, in case I want to stop and split off some shale from the hillside. There is a cliff that is all shale down by the dump, and it makes fine stepping stones, for free. Every year a few boulders tumble down off the hillside and it splits a little irregularly, but just fine. I have even used cement with it and made walkways and such. Its not the strongest stone. Not like real slate or anything. But its strong enough for some use.
Its kind of a greasy iridescent black color too. Looks cool.
All metal clapboard slicks were always made for construction. Going back to practically Pilgrim times. Typically they have a D handle like a digging fork, except all metal.
There are so many of these they almost have no value on the collector circuit. Any trip to an Eastern tool show will turn up several of them, cheap.
Classic socket slicks mostly sell by the pound. :) Longer wider blades fetch the most. Shorter and narrower, fetch the least.
I see them trading in the $150 to $400 range all the time. Too rich for my blood.
yours Scott
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Been trying to figure out how to suggest Roy Underhill to do a show on "Chisels", like has done on planes and saws and other things.
Anybody know how to email him?
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Gathered all my chisels together, They have served my needs as a handyman, (I'm not a real woodworker)
set of Olympia, mismatch of Stanley, Mismatch of some good old no name stuff, maybe japan?
had a set of 3 really good craftsmen all steel, bent handle, but only have the 1/4" left. (the 1/2" & 3/4" some how walked away)
now 2 buck bros long Paring chisel, nice feel!! but noticed they don't sell the 1/4" anymore, why & when did they discontinue it?
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Scott, here is a blog article from Toolemera linked to by Tony Seo on Facebook- It is by Gary Roberts-
Recently a question came up on a forum concerning what is, or what is not, a firmer chisel. I put my foot in my mouth and said that firmer chisels were typically socketed and of heavier build than regular chisels. Afterwards I took a look at some edge tool catalogs on my shelves. Lo and behold, but what did I see, but a whole lot of confusion.
http://toolemerablog.typepad.com/toolemera/2008/02/firming-up-on-c.html (http://toolemerablog.typepad.com/toolemera/2008/02/firming-up-on-c.html)
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>I put my foot in my mouth and said that firmer chisels were typically socketed and of heavier build than regular chisels.
What I *can* say, regardless of the usage in the L.&I.J. White catalog, is that the US Ordnance Department, at least as early as 1841, agreed that firmer chisels are "typically socketed and of heavier build." For use in the field, both firmer and framing chisels were issued, the framing chisels being heavier yet than firmers. Both were socket chisels. Both had relatively long blades. Somewhere I can't find at the moment, there's a list of definitions and descriptions of tools issued by the Ordnance Department. I'll keep looking for it.
The old Audel's carpenter books (originally published in 1923, reprinted at least as late as 1947) show firmers and framing chisels. The framing chisels are thicker and heavier, clearly. Audel's differences show framers ground to 25 degrees while the firmers are sharpened to 20 degrees. Both are socket chisels, and both are not bevel edged.
Catalogs are very useful, but tool names used? Sometimes at the mercy of copy writers and marketing schemes. That 1905 catalog clearly goes against the general understanding of what in the world a firmer chisel might be.
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Been trying to figure out how to suggest Roy Underhill to do a show on "Chisels", like has done on planes and saws and other things.
Anybody know how to email him?
leg17,
I don't have his email, but must say Roy Underhill is a national treasure. I have a few of his old books in paperback and try to watch his show every Sunday. Time well spent.
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Been trying to figure out how to suggest Roy Underhill to do a show on "Chisels", like has done on planes and saws and other things.
Anybody know how to email him?
Go to his website:
http://www.woodwrightschool.com/
On the right hand side you can click on "contact me."
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Been trying to figure out how to suggest Roy Underhill to do a show on "Chisels", like has done on planes and saws and other things.
Anybody know how to email him?
Go to his website:
http://www.woodwrightschool.com/
On the right hand side you can click on "contact me."
Branson, Thanks.
Makes me want to listen for the sound of "DUH"!
Thanks
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Scott, here is a blog article from Toolemera linked to by Tony Seo on Facebook- It is by Gary Roberts-
Recently a question came up on a forum concerning what is, or what is not, a firmer chisel. I put my foot in my mouth and said that firmer chisels were typically socketed and of heavier build than regular chisels. Afterwards I took a look at some edge tool catalogs on my shelves. Lo and behold, but what did I see, but a whole lot of confusion.
http://toolemerablog.typepad.com/toolemera/2008/02/firming-up-on-c.html (http://toolemerablog.typepad.com/toolemera/2008/02/firming-up-on-c.html)
These are both close friends of mine,.... So its kind of saying,
"your brother said to your other brother"_................heh
Another way to address Roy is to make friends with him on facebook.
I suspect he pays someone else to to maintain the F-book page but messages can be passed anyway
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After all of the conjecture about names of chisels, I found this page that spells it out. It is in the 1923 Audels Carpenter and Builders Guide. I figure that this was published before all of the names got pureed by the uninformed.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb373/johnsironsanctuary/scan0001_zpsa48fa41b.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/johnsironsanctuary/media/scan0001_zpsa48fa41b.jpg.html)
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After all of the conjecture about names of chisels, I found this page that spells it out. It is in the 1923 Audels Carpenter and Builders Guide. I figure that this was published before all of the names got pureed by the uninformed.
Interesting, John. I had read the same last evening and thought of this thread.
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Audel's is one of the best book investments I ever made. Got one set in the house, and one set in the shop. Both sets are the 1947 printing of the 1923 edition. The author is a right curmudgeon at times, I'm happy to say. The illustration on page 246 is a good example. My court of first resorts most of the time.