Tool Talk
Woodworking Forum => Woodworking Forum => Topic started by: jtc on August 06, 2013, 09:36:27 PM
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Fellow Tool Collectors,
I've recently discovered a clue and a new mystery concerning the cruciform slot Cheney Nailers -- thanks to the discovery of a box-fresh mint No. 3 Plain Face 1 lb. 12 oz. Cheney Nailer.
(http://jtc.net/hchc/images/cheney-03-nailer-05.jpg) (http://jtc.net/hchc/nailer/)
Apparently it is the Nos. 2, 3, 4, 5, and 7 that have the cruciform rather than flat-top 'T' shaped nail holding slot.
Still no clue as to the purpose of this variation -- except for the suggestion that it was to accommodate rose head nails.
Here's where it gets weird. These models, the Nos. 2, 3, 4, 5, and 7 are all listed in the 1904 catalog. They appear to be identical with the exception of the nail holding feature. The same is true for the Nos. 37 and 38 Bell Face Adz-Eye hammers. However, then those hammers were offered with the nail holding feature they were given new 900-series model numbers -- 937 and 938, respectively. In fact, all of the other Cheney Nailer models have 900-series numbers -- 944, 958, and 981. So why didn't they change the model numbers on the cruciform slotted nailers?
Meanwhile, I've added lots of new pictures to the site. Please check it out:
http://jtc.net/hchc/ (http://jtc.net/hchc/)
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Nice research, and a nice site for hammer enthusiasts.
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Thanks, papaw!
Any clue what's wrong with my image tag?
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(http://jtc.net/hchc/images/cheney-03-nailer-05.jpg)
You put in too much. Only needed http://jtc.net/hchc/images/cheney-03-nailer-05.jpg between IMG tags.
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Thanks, Papaw! That did the trick.
Meanwhile, I'm drooling over Skipskip's flea market find (http://www.papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=8872.0). This is the kind of cabinet I want to build for my hammers. Just when you think you've seen it all, a whole new world opens up. Beautiful. Inspiring.
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what are the balls for??
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what are the balls for??
Obviously this is a male hammer. ;-)
Seriously though, they are part of the nail holding feature. They're spring-loaded.
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OK, I can see it now, I should have checked the site first.. spring loaded nailer balls.. for the man that can safely nails things out of reach...
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There's a cruciform Cheney on eBay right now, on its second go 'round. Prolly because the seller is starting it off at $75.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321169226112?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
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Hi Branson!
My first thought was, I know exactly which hammer he's talking about. But when I looked it wasn't the one I had in mind. How did I miss this one? Maybe I subconsciously chose to ignore it...
I always have a tough time assigning value to these hammers, but $75 does seem a bit excessive. It's not in great shape and they made more than a few of these...
There two other similar listings, but for Australian-made Cheney Nailers. Same general condition. Same price range.
So far, all of the cruciform-slot Cheney Nailers appear to be Plain Face -- matching the pattern of the Nos. 2 (32 oz.), 3 (28 oz.), 4 (24 oz.), 5 (20 oz.), and 7 (16 oz.). The only one I've found marked with the model number is the No. 3.
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Without the original handle $75.00 is not just excessive,it borders on the ridiculous...especially in that condition. I have one in excellent condition with an original handle and a partial decal that I would be happy to sell for $75.00.
Mike
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Maybe tell the seller they are asking to much and why (a misrepresentation of potential value is bad for all possible buyers and sellers within any realm of collect-ability)?
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looks like it only has one ball & it's not in the hole, no spring?..
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Maybe tell the seller they are asking to much and why (a misrepresentation of potential value is bad for all possible buyers and sellers within any realm of collect-ability)?
Good luck with that! When #199 and 299 Stanley box knives are offered for as much as $80 or so, I think the only way the seller will figure things out is when it never sells. Some never learn. A fairly common mallet described as being in good condition, but which has a gaping hole in one side has been offered at the same ridiculous price at least four times now.
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The $75 Nailer is now "on sale" -- a whopping 10% off! So now it's only $67.50.
Meanwhile, how are we going to figure out The Mystery of the Cruciform-Slot Cheney Nailers?
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I have confirmed that the Nos. 2 (size 000, 2 lbs.), 3 (size 00, 1 lb. 12 oz.), 4 (size 0, 1 lb. 8 oz.), 5 (size 1, 1 lb. 4 oz.), and 7 (size 1 1/2, 1 lb.) were offered as Cheney Nailers. They also offered Nos. 802, 803, 804, 805, and 807 -- which were the same hammer only painted black, both the head and the handle with the face and the back of the claw polished.
Still no answer for the cruciform slot...
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I still think the cruciform slot was made to accept rose head nails. Can't see any other explanation for it, especially since both style slots seem to have been made at the same time (at least for a while). The bell face hammers, so far as I have seen, never have the cruciform slot -- only the older style heads.
Maybe dating the rose head nails will help. Audel's is still showing the rose head cut nails in my 1947 edition, that might just be a hold over from the first edition in the '20s.
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As far as prices?
There is an antique shop in downtown Yreka Ca. Its been there 6 or 8 years now.
Some prices are reasonable some are ridiculous.
I was talking to the owner. I pointed out a really bad price. She says, "Doesn't matter, I have sold two at that price. I am the one they expect to know values, so I set the values"
She didn't have a single reference book behind the counter She runs the place totally, seat-of-the-pants,
and stays in business.
There is a seller on ebay who customarily asks, and gets, 4 to 5 times the average price for his goods. He runs a snooty "decorator" antique shop in Kansas City. People buy his things off ebay because they all expect him to be the authority.
Martin Donnelley runs the largest internet old tool auction in the country. He sets opening bids at over twice the national average, more times than not.
And the tools mostly sell for even more than that, at the end.
Sometimes much more.
Fool and his money
Hooray for Hollywood
That screwey ballyhooey Hollywood
yours Scott
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Branson, you make great points and I don't mean to discount your theory -- it's definitely the best we have. I'd just like to find an ad or catalog listing or something tangible. Audel's is a good lead!
ScottG, you're right. A fool and his money. I'm still shaking my head at the Silver King Cheney Nailer that sold for $405 last January.
My beef with Martin J. Donnelly and Jim Bode is that they invariably list Cheney Nailers with reference to Henry Cheney's patent. They must know better -- I've emailed them both several times. I've never gotten a reply from either one. Clearly it's to their advantage to lead buyers into thinking that these hammers are much older than they actually are. Maybe it's a mistake, but it's an awfully convenient mistake... Caveat emptor!
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>convenient mistake
yes, but, most of the folks hey compete with make the same convenient mistake. Look at ebay listings, virtually every one listing a patent pretends the thing is as old as the patent, even tho there is usually no way to tell if it is anywhere within decades of the original patent date...
> Caveat emptor!
Always
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Scott, Your comment below is not exactly correct.
" Martin Donnelley runs the largest internet old tool auction in the country. He sets opening bids at over twice the national average, more times than not.
And the tools mostly sell for even more than that, at the end."
While it is true that he runs the largest old tool auction in the country, it is not correct that he sets opening bids at "over twice the national average, more times than not". By the way, where do I find a "national average" price list for old tools?
First off, Martin is not the auctioneer, he has two people that do that for him. While his catalog shows a high and low price, they in know way have anything directly to do with the starting bids. Many of the opening bids are determined by the absentee bidder's. From what I observed in July, and again in Sept., about 30-40% of the items went absentee.
There were more than a few items that sold for much less than the low estimate, as well as many that sold for more than the high estimate. It is an auction, if you want the item, then you must pay the price.
The unfortunate part of these large auctions is that they attract a large amount of bidders, some of whom have very deep pockets.
And yes I have bought items at his auctions, and sold items thru them.
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>convenient mistake
yes, but, most of the folks hey compete with make the same convenient mistake. Look at ebay listings, virtually every one listing a patent pretends the thing is as old as the patent, even tho there is usually no way to tell if it is anywhere within decades of the original patent date...
It seems simple logic that the patent must be older than the item marked with the patent number...
In this case, the patent they cite is for a completely different hammer and the correct patent is over 50 years later!
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About the only way that a patent date is really useful in determining age is when you have a tool marked "Patent Pending."
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Branson, you make great points and I don't mean to discount your theory -- it's definitely the best we have. I'd just like to find an ad or catalog listing or something tangible. Audel's is a good lead!
Don't feel discounted at all. I'd like to find something definite as well. Hypothesis is nice, but evidence is much better.