Tool Talk
Woodworking Forum => Woodworking Forum => Topic started by: skipskip on July 28, 2013, 03:02:07 PM
-
I went to the Flea yesterday expaecting bupkis, but hoping...
a dealer had this toolbox behind his table, it was homemade and not too many tools inside, and a bit expensive.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5331/9384978275_2eb731c894_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9384978275/)
JUL 233 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9384978275/) by skipskip (http://www.flickr.com/people/skipskip/), on Flickr
I asked if I could come behind and look more closely. when I did, I quietly paid his price and started to drag it away.
I had seen a bit more than what was visible from the aisle.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2821/9384983627_e2e7f675c5_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9384983627/)
JUL 236 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9384983627/) by skipskip (http://www.flickr.com/people/skipskip/), on Flickr
He pointed to another box that included the hewing hatchet in the previous post and a couple dozen other old tools "they go with it"
Oh... OK
some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you
Skip
-
WoW!! Drama is right
The previous owner was a gouge collector. There are 3 gouges for every chisel, at least.
Really outstanding
and the box is actually real nice.
Who made the saw/ I like panel saws.
You can tell us what you gave. We don't mind. :)
yours Scott
-
Dang, Skip! You probably stole it!
-
Amazing find!
-
WOW!@! What an Amazing collection!!.. right place at the right time.. looks like more was added to the lift side..
-
WOW!! I am drooling all over my keyboard. Skip. you have GOT to teach that tool chest how to talk. It has way too many stories to tell to remain mute.
-
looks like more was added to the lift side..
yes, good eye!! that is some of the stuff in the extra box that came along with the tool box
-
OK, tool wizards, what is the tool in the center section that looks like a little scythe used for?
-
Yup, what a treasure chest.. Please show more out of box, so we can see each tool, sure members have lots of Old tool history & information on each tool...
-
John, my first guess without looking in some of my books would be a caulk removing tool. Caulk as in the stuff they used to put in between the boards on ships and boats. My grandfather and great grandfather both built and repaired canal boats that were used on the Delaware Canal in Eastern PA. I missed out on getting a set of caulking tools when my grandfather died because I had other interests at the time. This doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the tools in the set pictured.
-
OK, tool wizards, what is the tool in the center section that looks like a little scythe used for?
Looks a little out of place with the other tools... It looks like a harvesting knife to me. In SE Asia, similar knives are used in the opium trade, and a similar knife again is use in harvesting grapes. Such knives are also used in harvesting various herbs. What a carpenter would have used this for I have no idea.
-
Lewill, that may be the right call. There were several canals in upstate New York.
Branson, I think the opium boom in New York was over by the time this chest was built in the 19th century.
-
I'll fill in the blanks as I learn more about this box.
it came from an older farmhouse along the Hudson river, near albany, so Marine, canal, or general carpentry is possible.
But this newspaper article glues to the box caught my eye.
I'm thinking a wood carver, sculptor?
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3683/9403288046_25c4573731_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9403288046/)
JUL 196 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9403288046/) by skipskip (http://www.flickr.com/people/skipskip/), on Flickr
some of the tools I have researched seem to be a bit up-market, rather than basic models.
example, the 2 foot boxwood rule is a model 76, with archtop ends rather than a plain model.
The owner also put his name on some of the tools, on late model wrenches we tend to frown on this habit, but in this case, it seems to add to the charm and mystery of the tools, IMHO.
Skip
-
Who made the saw/ I like panel saws.
yours Scott
saw is made by Worrall, I cant find too much about them other than they were in NYC.
I don't have a gauge, but it looks like 10 TPI
-
I was in awe even before I saw the inner part swung open. Have seen exactly one hanging tool box like this, but nowhere near this complete. With half that many tools it was a terrific buy.
-
Lewill, that may be the right call. There were several canals in upstate New York.
Branson, I think the opium boom in New York was over by the time this chest was built in the 19th century.
Opium boom all over all ready?! Oh drat. Did they have grapes yet?
The thing is, I've never seen a caulk removing tool that looked anything like this. The shape of the blade, though, is a very common horticultural pattern, especially for harvesting grapes and herbs, has been over many years time.
An argument against it being a caulk removing tool is that none of the other tools are shipwright's tools, and no caulking mallet, no caulking irons. There are no chisels for the heavy work required -- all the chisels are tanged chisels and not one socket firmer, mortiser or framer.
I think you are right on the money about "The Human Figure." These are about the proportions needed by a sculptor.
Craftsmen relentlessly steal the tools of other trades that serve some need. Maybe the guy found some special use for the little sickle. Maybe he harvested rose hips on the side... But as a caulk remover, that blade would die in a day's work, seems to me.
-
Definitely a grape knife.
It could and surely can be pressed into other service. But decidedly a grape knife when it was made.
Its just too classic an outline to miss.
This guy probably had a vine over the doorway!
A super classic advertisement of contentment in life, going back about as far as people, having a vine over the door.
yours Scott
-
an Awl , a Gimlet and I dunno
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5544/9426336236_3603a4f7f3.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9426336236/)
AUG 055 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9426336236/) by skipskip (http://www.flickr.com/people/skipskip/), on Flickr
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3667/9426335270_b373fae12f.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9426335270/)
AUG 054 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9426335270/) by skipskip (http://www.flickr.com/people/skipskip/), on Flickr
more pics here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/sets/72157634813689063/
-
Um, the tool in the middle is a corkscrew, not a gimlet. But a nice looking one.
-
The dunno looks like a wooden keg/barrow plug/valve..
-
The dunno looks like a wooden keg/barrow plug/valve..
yes, and I found the rest of it, I am beginning to see a pattern here :)
grape knife, corkscrew, barrel valve.
perhaps our carpenter worked in a vineyard, or at least used their products
-
Chisels today.
the best part of this hobby ( aside from all the interesting people) is learning about a new part of the tool world.
Woodworking is a new field for me, so I need to learn the names of the tools, and the history of the makers.
The interweb is a big help, but often it's confusing.
here are some pics of the tools I think are chisels.
these three have no names on them, the two on the left are small mortise chisels? the one on the right looks like a letter opener
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3758/9435586711_4ea7d0f915.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9435586711/)
AUG 078 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9435586711/) by skipskip (http://www.flickr.com/people/skipskip/), on Flickr
next three are stamped acier fondu , (French for cast steel, I read) and have an eye logo.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3746/9438370566_bab5abaed5.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9438370566/)
AUG 080 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9438370566/) by skipskip (http://www.flickr.com/people/skipskip/), on Flickr
this one says S.J. Addis London and a Mason compass logo
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3691/9438376452_cabed350e3.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9438376452/)
AUG 083 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9438376452/) by skipskip (http://www.flickr.com/people/skipskip/), on Flickr
these two are Goldenberg
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3692/9438386404_db685e8c67.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9438386404/)
AUG 088 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9438386404/) by skipskip (http://www.flickr.com/people/skipskip/), on Flickr
more pics of these are here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/sets/72157634813689063/
any help or info on these will be greatly appreciated
Skip
-
Well the bottom ones are pigsticker mortise chisels and they've got full length blades. Not used much, and so pretty desirable now.
The skew chisels (ground off at an angle) and the straight chisels ground from both sides are for woodcarving/sculpting. This is how we do it.
The one side beveled straight chisels are really for general carpenter/joiner/cabinet benchwork, but you know these woodcarvers, they will use anything! hehehehhe
The long tapered blade gouge (letter opener?) was customized for a specific job. I have no idea what, but it wasn't made that way.
yours Scott
-
@OP: Did you feel like a ninja making that silent acquisition? I would, lol. How much did you get away with all of it for about (you said it was a bit expensive)?
-
Chisels today.
the best part of this hobby ( aside from all the interesting people) is learning about a new part of the tool world.
Woodworking is a new field for me, so I need to learn the names of the tools, and the history of the makers.
The interweb is a big help, but often it's confusing.
next three are stamped acier fondu , (French for cast steel, I read) and have an eye logo.
this one says S.J. Addis London and a Mason compass logo
Skip
Acier Fondue does mean cast steel. You find this mark on a number of French tools -- Peugeot tools are mostly so marked, and those Opinel folding knives that Mr. Chuck doesn't care for <g>. (Acier Lame is another mark occasionally found, which means laminated steel. ) In my experience, the French acier fondue isn't quite as good as English or American cast steel, but it is quite good. Cast steel is always a selling point for me -- it's both hard and tough. I have a W. Butcher 3/4 inch mortise chisel I bought in 1983. Had it sharpened, and in the last 30 years I've had to hone the edge five times -- it will still raise a curl on your finger nail!
Most of the Sheffield tool makers produced excellent products. None I have or have used are less than the best. I haven't used any Addis chisels, but I notice they are commanding good prices on eBay these days.
Learning the names of the tools and the makers is a long process. The names are easy enough, but books are better than the internet in my opinion.
You'll find good information in Bealer's Old Ways of Working Wood, all of Eric Sloane's books, Aldren Watson's Country Furniture, Roy Underhill's books. Watson and Underhill also have projects for using these tools.
You'll have fun learning this stuff!
-
Fantastic score there Skip! I'm enjoying seeing the pictures and hearing about the tools inside.
Question: Have we came up with an approximate age of this tool box?
-
@OP: Did you feel like a ninja making that silent acquisition? I would, lol. How much did you get away with all of it for about (you said it was a bit expensive)?
I am reluctant to say a number, but it made a healthy dent in my tool budget for a while.
-
Question: Have we came up with an approximate age of this tool box?
most of these tools are European, and unfamiliar to me, so dating is a challenge.
I get a sense of first half of the 20th century, hopefully others more qualified than me can narrow it down a bit.
Skip
-
Question: Have we came up with an approximate age of this tool box?
I've seen period photos of this style of tool box dating from the mid to late 1800s. But the S.J. Addis mark is a useful clue. Samuel James Addis (S.J.) was born in 1811. He's listed as a London tool maker in 1846. He died in 1870, "and the rights to the S.J. Addis trademark are bought by Ward & Payne of Sheffield who begin to mark their "Celebrated London Pattern Carving Tools" with the S.J. Addis name and the Ward and Payne crossed hammers and anvil trademark. These tools were probably being made by J.B. Addis [Samuel's younger brother]."
Since the Mason's dividers and compass mark is not the crossed hammers and anvil trademark of Ward and Payne, the skew chisel probably pre-dates 1870. So I think it likely this box was old at the dawn of the 20th Century.
-
A few gouge pics today
Only one new brand name
DR Barton Rochester NY 1832
the date is the time they started the biz, not the date of the gouge.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5350/9455607308_15a18051d7.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9455607308/)
AUG 123 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9455607308/) by skipskip (http://www.flickr.com/people/skipskip/), on Flickr
some of the gouges are numbered, some not. Is it a "I know what size I need" kind of thing? or did they all start out with numbers?
-
Good ol'l Doc Barton heeheh.
Just kidding, but DR Barton was one of the largest manufacturers of edge tools at one time.
This is a woodturning gouge. For a lathe. (Sometimes called a fingernail gouge for obvious reasons.)
If you aren't sure when looking at a gouge, much of the time the ones with no bolster??
That swelling of metal so the handle can't pound into the handle any deeper?
If it doesn't have one of those?
Its probably for woodturning.
One or two companies made really small woodcarving chisels with no bolsters (Herron for one) but by and large, all the larger woodcarving tools have bolsters on the tang.
Yes they all had numbers once.
The "sweep" of the gouge? How much curve it has?
These were always numbered.
The only fly in that ointment is, different companies used different numbering systems.
Big help, huh?
I kind of think this box and tools date to the early 1900's.
The box could have been made last week and there is no way to know for sure.
But the tools? Seem to mostly be centered around this time.
I see some older and some newer too, but the majority??
yours Scott
PS If I was guessing, and I am, I am thinking this guy worked for the circus.
Something along that line. Carnival maybe? Municipal architecture?
But something involving stand alone carving.
The box is highly portable. Its missing all manner of cabinet or even carpenter tools. This guy wasn't doing a wide range of work. This was a carvers box.
-
PS If I was guessing, and I am, I am thinking this guy worked for the circus.
Something along that line. Carnival maybe? Municipal architecture?
But something involving stand alone carving.
The box is highly portable. Its missing all manner of cabinet or even carpenter tools. This guy wasn't doing a wide range of work. This was a carvers box.
Huh, like fixing the carving on the carousel?
or carving things to sell, like the chainsaw logs into bears guy?
Interesting direction...
-
Woodcarving for a circus was a big deal in the golden era of circuses. There were a lot of circus carvers.
-
Woodcarving for a circus was a big deal in the golden era of circuses. There were a lot of circus carvers.
Yeah, and there were so many of them, and they were so good, that they didn't make all the money in the world either. There were carvers at the county courthouse, the corner church, every boat of consequence, woodcarving was everywhere.
Not like now when only a handful are good, there were thousands once.
It was a solid respectable occupation, but not highly lucrative, so that would be reflected in the box in general. Good solid tools, but not the big expensive sets.
More like, just what it took the man to do his job and only a little extra.
yours Scott
-
Supply & demand! now we have computers doing the layout & machines carving... hard to compete by handcraft..
-
That's a Barton lathe gouge -- no shoulder for the handle. I have a number of Barton tools, and three lathe tools.
D.R. Barton is one of my favorite American tool makers. Always dependable quality. This mark doesn't appear on the early Barton products, but is some help in determining age. Attached is a Barton generated drawing showing this particular mark. I thought the mark wasn't used until 1870, but apparently it was used at least a year earlier. At the same time, Barton began using the half oval mark as well.
-
almost done, a few more gouges
new to me names today
Buck Brothers
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5330/9457010053_526682c764.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9457010053/)
AUG 143 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9457010053/) by skipskip (http://www.flickr.com/people/skipskip/), on Flickr
Moulson Brothers
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2860/9457014135_589747d493.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9457014135/)
AUG 146 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9457014135/) by skipskip (http://www.flickr.com/people/skipskip/), on Flickr
and a v groove chisel, what is it called?
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7295/9457019195_e64f20413a.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9457019195/)
AUG 152 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skipskip/9457019195/) by skipskip (http://www.flickr.com/people/skipskip/), on Flickr
-
Thats most of it.
what seem to be missing, at least to my non-woodworking eye.
brace
mallet or soft hammer for the chisels
what else?
-
moulson and addis both british make.
-
Buck Bothers -- one of my other favorite American tool makers. The brothers started their own company after working for D.R. Barton. One brother left first, and the other joined him later. I have a plane blade marked Henry Buck.