Tool Talk
What's-It Forum => What's-It Forum => Topic started by: Dave Arnett on February 01, 2013, 12:53:42 PM
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I know nothing about it's age, and even less about it's purpose. .
The wedge and ring are steel, and the split piece is some kind of wood.
We're not even sure if it's assembled correctly.
(http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/2358/img3092cp.jpg) (http://img818.imageshack.us/i/img3092cp.jpg/)
(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/7765/img3094jz.jpg) (http://img843.imageshack.us/i/img3094jz.jpg/)
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7141/img3097jy.jpg) (http://img6.imageshack.us/i/img3097jy.jpg/)
It’s been suggested that it might be a “feather & wedge set”, used the cut/break stone. But the wood on this thing is as smooth as a baby's butt (top to bottom). I just can't believe it's ever been driven into a hole in a rock.
My gut feeling is that this thing has been used a lot...on something not abrasive. The wood is smooth...not sanded smooth, but worn smooth.
Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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i sure could have used it a couple days ago i had two pieces that had to be bolted together i could have alignment the holes by using the item in one hole while i put the bolt in the second hole. bob w.
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I think Bob may be on to something. It may be for aligning two holes in wood. They wanted to use it a lot, but not mushroom the head, which would happen with a wooden wedge. The metal wedge was probably beat on with a wooden or leather mallet because it is not mushroomed at all.
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Thanks for the feedback, Gentlemen.
You're talking about a "spud wrench". I was an iron worker in my previous life, I've used many a spud wrench.
I can see the thought behind it, but I'm just not convinced.
This is a piece that was recently donated to a historical museum in my neighborhood. It’s a long story (not worth telling) on how I got involved. I assured them I could find out what it is/was, but I’m finding out “assure” is a lot like “assume”.
But then again, I ain't givin' up.....yet.
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That's the attitude!
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Went thru Sellens Dictionary of American Hand Tools but did not find this tool. Doesn't mean its not there but I looked at every page.
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Perhaps for expanding something like lead pipe?
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Expanding lead pipe? Hey, could be, or early soft copper or brass pipe. Have to make the end round to fit things together. Could see where any pipe could be knocked out of round in transport. The marks on the shaft could be from being driven into pipe. The ring was definitely a limiter, as to stop the expansion. Pipe rounder, or expander? Be interesting to have a lab take a scraping of the marks on the shaft and analyze them.
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I wasn't thinking spud wrench, which is for aligning holes in metal. I was thinking more like a wooden draw bore pin (most are steel), which is used for aligning holes in woodworking. Most drwa bore pins that I have seen have a similar taper.
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John K's idea for lead pipe seems most feasible, although most plumbers used a tapered box wood pin that was smacked in with a mallet. Maybe just for bringing the end of a tube circular if it had been damaged..... At first sight I thought a jewellers ring holder, but that has the ring acting as a pivot, and the two jaws are seperated...
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All good suggestions above, but none really satisfy me.
I'm thinking we are looking at this from the wrong end. Couldn't the wood be so smooth from hand use over many years? With that ring set in a groove, it wouldn't move, nor would the piece fitted in there move.
Could it have been a hand made hand tool like a burnisher, a gauge, or even have been sharpened to be a cutter or scraper?
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It's shape sort of looks like the tapered reamer used in chair making, but it's construction is completely different.
The ring seems to indicate a fixed pre-determined size limit.
I don't know.
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I picture driving it into something....something not harder than the wood (no nicks). Then doing whatever to that something. Then pulling the wedge out, releasing the pressure and the ring, so the tool can pulled out of the "something".
Make sense?
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If the head were installed 90 degrees to what you have, could it be some type of hammer or tomahawk? Add a piece of rawhide to keep it from splitting out the other end?
I agree that the thing can't get much bigger with the ring preventing expansion.
Very interesting though. I hope somebody knows for sure.
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>I agree that the thing can't get much bigger with the ring preventing expansion.
The more I look at this, the more I think we're going at it the wrong way. I suspect the tool isn't for expansion, but for compression. Something light, like sheet tin, could be placed *under* the ring. Then driving in the wedge would make it conform to the depression the ring sits in. In other words, the wedge serves to press material into conformation of the ring and groove. I admit I don't see the utility of this process, but it does seem to fit.
We may never know what this tool really did. It has all the earmarks of a shop made, field expedient, limited use specialty tool, perhaps for a small run order. It's split to accept the wedge, not sawn. The split is not contained by a pin or a band. It doesn't seem to have been made for a life time tool.
The only thing I can think of for its use is some kind of tin work, something used after a piece of tin was worked into a tube.
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I think John is on to something, looks like a tool to expand end of soft pipes to fit the next pipe into it. A tapered expansion tool slip into soft pipe, pin expans it & rotate tool to round out. looks like the contact area is discolored some from rubbing. Just bouncing ideas...
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I have a couple guys insisting it's a fid, or gripfid, used on big nautical rope.
I know how to tie a few knots, and I have used a fid a time or two, but I still ain't convinced.
What say ye?
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Hmm, a fid is a single piece, but,
Patersons nautical dictionary gives:
Wedge-fid. A fid in two parts, wedge-shaped
A different reference says a wedge-fid goes on the top of a topgallant mast...
neither gives an illustration....
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I give up. Dangit!!
I've posted this **** thing on 5 forums, sent e-mails all over the country, even a few across the pond, and still can't come up with a definitive answer.
I do want to thank y'all for the help, though!
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Try - http://55tools.blogspot.com/ (http://55tools.blogspot.com/)
He puts up what's-its all the time and gets answers usually.
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From the dimensions it's probably a buffer's grip for holding something like napkin rings as they are held against the wheel.
Due to the lack of popularity of napkin rings today only smaller grips with a skightky different expander & retainer are marketed.
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This is a wild guess that Aunt Phil's photo has promted! Its not an early/primitive knife makers vise/holder is it? The napkin holder doesn't need an extra ring, but the steel ring makes sense if you are wedging a knife blade to work on the tang or handle.
Graeme
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These are jeweler's ring vises. I've had one, bought new for the purpose, for 50 years or more.
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These are jeweler's ring vises. I've had one, bought new for the purpose, for 50 years or more.
At the smallest point, this thing is 3/4" or more across.
Can you post a pic of yours...beside a tape measure?
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Try - http://55tools.blogspot.com/ (http://55tools.blogspot.com/)
He puts up what's-its all the time and gets answers usually.
Now there's another option!!
I've looked it over but can't figure out how to contact them. (I'm more than just a little bit computer ignorant)
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To submit photos, send them to the address in my profile, please include dimensions, any text on the item, and where it was found.
rhvp65@gmail.com
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Can you post a pic of yours...beside a tape measure?
Afraid not -- it was packed in some tool box years ago, and that box has been in storage for the past 9 years. But here's one on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wooden-Jewelers-Ring-Clamp-Wood-Jewelry-Vise-Tool-Holder-Size-6-Hold-Rings-New-/170926266550?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D11%26meid%3D5497539355653242433%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D390353692207%26
There are at the moment three others on eBay, all more or less identical. They're listed as "ring clamps."
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I've got an ancient timber framed home and the wood looks suspiciously like the pegs that are driven into the hand hewn beams that hold them together. The holes are drilled and the pegs are driven in with a mallet or similar tool. Could this be for aligning the holes in such beams or for expanding the opening of the holes?
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It isn't a fid, the end isn't sharp enough and fids don't need to be hammered with such force that necessitates a metal wedge. It's also not for expanding metal pipe as the wood shows no damage. If it was hammered into pipe then the wood would show damage rings.
It is definitely for woodworking. If not for timber framing then maybe shipbuilding. The metal wedge is there because it needs to be hammered with a fair amount of force, and the iron ring serves as a stop as well as retaining the whole thing together.
Here is a link to a shop that turns pegs used for timber framing. You can see in the picture that the pegs look like the one you have, but the ring stop toward the end is turned on the lathe in these. I would bet that in the old days with the old original hand carved pegs, you may have to have one of these split style pegs with the metal wedge to expand the drilled hole in some cases. It would then make the insertion of the construction peg easier. Here is a link to the page with the photo.
http://www.pegs.us/products.htm
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It isn't a fid, the end isn't sharp enough and fids don't need to be hammered with such force that necessitates a metal wedge. It's also not for expanding metal pipe as the wood shows no damage. If it was hammered into pipe then the wood would show damage rings.
It is definitely for woodworking. If not for timber framing then maybe shipbuilding. The metal wedge is there because it needs to be hammered with a fair amount of force, and the iron ring serves as a stop as well as retaining the whole thing together.
Here is a link to a shop that turns pegs used for timber framing. You can see in the picture that the pegs look like the one you have, but the ring stop toward the end is turned on the lathe in these. I would bet that in the old days with the old original hand carved pegs, you may have to have one of these split style pegs with the metal wedge to expand the drilled hole in some cases. It would then make the insertion of the construction peg easier. Here is a link to the page with the photo.
http://www.pegs.us/products.htm
Yeah, I've ruled out fids and metal work.
"Old timber framing".......I can see that. I believe I'll dig into that.
Thanks.
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I sent it here http://www.northhouse.org/
They had no idea either.
Still diggin' though.
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You can buy yourself a 580 Case tractorhoe, it's still a clamping device for holding rings while they are being buffed or worked on.
BTW, mortise & tenon are line drilled in place, and a peg larger than the hole is driven in.
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"...it's still a clamping device for holding rings while they are being buffed or worked on.
Is there some way to substantiate that?
I'm not going to the museum and telling them, "It's a clamping device for holding napkin rings while they are being buffed or worked on. I know this for a fact because 'cause Aunt Phil told me so."
They're gonna want more than that.
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"...it's still a clamping device for holding rings while they are being buffed or worked on.
Is there some way to substantiate that?
I'm not going to the museum and telling them, "It's a clamping device for holding napkin rings while they are being buffed or worked on. I know this for a fact because 'cause Aunt Phil told me so."
They're gonna want more than that.
Gee Dave, had you only mentioned Museum to begin with, I would have told you it's a time honored well known device for expanding the discharge port on Curators & members of museum exhibit comitys. My experience over a number of years with those vaunted people tells me they all know everything and need expansion to prevent fissures when they expound and enlighten with misinformation.
The model in your picture predates the exploding wedge unit that killed a lot of comity members which has been replaced currently with a hydraulic device from Enerpac.
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STILL DIGGING
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BTW, mortise & tenon are line drilled in place, and a peg larger than the hole is driven in.
Mortice drilled through, tenon marked and hole drilled closer to shoulder so when drawbore pin, or dowel, is driven in it pulls joint tight and pre-tensions it. In Europe dowels are usually hand cut and tapered to a dull point... Yes body of dowel can be slightly larger than the hole, but it needs the point to get it through three holes, only two of which are in line.... Most dowels are hand cut, so tend to be polyagonal, not round - they bite into the wood, and as both hole and dowel are compressed slightly they do not come loose..
Images from: http://portugalpermaculture.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/sills.html
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It's probably going end up as part of a childs homemade toy LOL BOB W.
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Mortice drilled through, tenon marked and hole drilled closer to shoulder so when drawbore pin, or dowel, is driven in it pulls joint tight and pre-tensions it. In Europe dowels are usually hand cut and tapered to a dull point... Yes body of dowel can be slightly larger than the hole, but it needs the point to get it through three holes, only two of which are in line.... Most dowels are hand cut, so tend to be polyagonal, not round - they bite into the wood, and as both hole and dowel are compressed slightly they do not come loose..
Yes, just so. Some are even left square at the outside end of the pin. You can see the point of the points in a lot of old barn construction. The big ones used in timber framing are called trunnels (tree-nails). In furniture, the shoulders of the tenons are frequently undercut to make a knife-edge joint. In old window sash, the pins are usually polygonal. Better gripping that way.
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Thanks for the constructive feed back, Gentlemen.
At this point, I'll research almost any suggestion.
The curator of the museum (a very knowledgeable, well respected gentleman) suggested that the small end may be worn smooth because it's the handle, rather than the working end. I'm not sure if I'm buying that or not, but.........who knows?
It's probably going end up as part of a childs homemade toy LOL BOB W.
I hope not, but that could very well be the case, Bob.
STILL DIGGIN'
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I just got this...
I think that this is a wedge that was used in rope beds to roll the tension at one end of the bed before the weaving took place of the crossings that were directed through the sides and ends of the bed. When this peg was in place in the hole with the line tied around it, the wedge was driven in and, because they did not want the peg to split, they put the iron ring on the peg top. I am not certain however.
Watcha think?
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Makes sense to me.
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Just got this from a "rope bed guy"....
Hi Dave,
Sorry, I have never seen one of these. Sounds like it over complicates what simply a knot would do.
Good luck in your search!
Mark
Weaving Haus Antiques
Back to diggin'!
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Send $1000 honorarium to Distinguished Professor Philippe DeBlanc Endowment Fund and the Prof will write you a short book on the ring holder, why it's built with a wedge instead of a screw, and how it's used.
I'll even include a picture of a shovel, and instructions on how to employ the ring holder to expand a curators information portal.
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Send $1000 honorarium to Distinguished Professor Philippe DeBlanc Endowment Fund and the Prof will write you a short book on the ring holder, why it's built with a wedge instead of a screw, and how it's used.
I'll even include a picture of a shovel, and instructions on how to employ the ring holder to expand a curators information portal.
I haven't been here long, but (with all due respect) I have been here long enough to learn you're the kinda guy that "I'd like to buy for what you're worth, then sell you for what you think you're worth." ;)
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Snicker ;P
Still, I am leaning towards Phil's idea it is a holder for polishing....
It resembles several other things I have seen for similar purposes, unfortunatly, the jewelry and silver trade practiced secrecy to the point of paranoia, and there is very little good documentation on methods and tools :(
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Send $1000 honorarium to Distinguished Professor Philippe DeBlanc Endowment Fund and the Prof will write you a short book on the ring holder, why it's built with a wedge instead of a screw, and how it's used.
I'll even include a picture of a shovel, and instructions on how to employ the ring holder to expand a curators information portal.
I haven't been here long, but (with all due respect) I have been here long enough to learn you're the kinda guy that "I'd like to buy for what you're worth, then sell you for what you think you're worth." ;)
Now you can make the check for $1250- I didn't realize you were a conservator.
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Here is a link to a jewelers' ring vise or ring clamp, currently produced, of wood.
http://www.ottofrei.com/Standard-Wood-Ring-Clamp.html
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Here's a WAG - the end without the ring is the handle , object is put in the split end ,
Wedge is inserted to fold over object , ring is there to control the size.
Outside the box thinking. I said it was a WAG.
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Maybe we just didn't have the whole tool. This just appeared this morning on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Workshop-Lumber-Board-Holder-Devise-OLD-Patd-1895-/181098357998?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a2a4da4ee
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>Maybe we just didn't have the whole tool
Neither does the seller ;P
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Oh just great Rusty.
Now we gotta figure out if it was designed for the yuppie of that time frame to swing the flour barrel in the pantry, or for use in a pail closet to make for less splashing as the pails were removed.