Tool Talk

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Plyerman on March 28, 2016, 07:35:52 PM

Title: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: Plyerman on March 28, 2016, 07:35:52 PM: I bought these because they reminded me of the old "Washington" combination pliers (patent #871,585) with the hammer pol along the edge. These pliers are similar, but are slightly smaller, and stamped "Red Devil 1225". But when I started researching, I found that Crescent Tool Company acquired the Red Devil line back in the late 1920's, and the only old advertisements and photos I found of the "1225" were of pliers with no hammer.

So my question is, are these the genuine article, or has someone done a very good job of fabricating?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/jooliesews/Bobbys/Bobbys%20III/red%20devil%201225a_zpsvnynxqan.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/jooliesews/Bobbys/Bobbys%20III/red%20devil%201225b_zpsv5ewuls7.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/jooliesews/Bobbys/Bobbys%20III/red%20devil%201225c_zpsvwacvltg.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/jooliesews/Bobbys/Bobbys%20III/red%20devil%201225d_zpsll6naayd.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/jooliesews/Bobbys/Bobbys%20III/red%20devil%201225e_zpsihvjfps8.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/jooliesews/Bobbys/Bobbys%20III/1922%20ad_zpsvvsfrgzt.jpg)
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: Northwoods on March 28, 2016, 08:25:27 PM: Genuine, for sure!
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: mikeswrenches on March 28, 2016, 08:35:52 PM: It sure looks like the hammer is forged as one piece with the plier jaw.

Mike
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: wvtools on March 28, 2016, 08:50:15 PM: The EAIA Directory of American Toolmaker's says Smith and Hemenway changed their name to Red Devil in 1944. I have a 1960 Red Devil catalog. Are you sure about the Crescent date? Maybe they took it over later?

Those look factory made. Either someone did a really good job of modifying them or they were a special order. Companies would make just about anything anyone wanted for a price. I have see some odd tools that looked factory made. I have a pair of pliers listed on Ebay that is just the wire cutters of a slip joint pliers. It looks factory made with the jaws of the pliers cut off
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: wvtools on March 28, 2016, 08:53:59 PM: My catalog is 1951 and the only pliers in it are glass and tile pliers.
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: john k on March 28, 2016, 09:20:10 PM: With the hammer on it, am thinking was an early tool for installing auto wheel weights. Before our specialty weight tools, pliers were used to wrench the old weights off.
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: Plyerman on March 28, 2016, 09:29:08 PM: Quote from: wvtools on March 28, 2016, 08:50:15 PM
The EAIA Directory of American Toolmaker's says Smith and Hemenway changed their name to Red Devil in 1944. I have a 1960 Red Devil catalog. Are you sure about the Crescent date? Maybe they took it over later?

.........

Hmmmm, I know nothing for certain, just what I read on Alloy Artifacts here: http://alloy-artifacts.org/crescent-tool.html

It says that Crescent Tool bought out Smith & Hemenway, makers of the Red Devil line of pliers, in 1926. Then later on Mr. Smith (formerly of Smith & Heminway) resurrected the Red Devil name for his line of glass cutters and such. But the old line of Red Devil plier tools all became Crescent branded items.

So I dunno..?
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: bonneyman on March 28, 2016, 09:44:11 PM: If it's a fake some welder did one heck of a job!
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: mvwcnews on March 28, 2016, 09:54:56 PM: I'd vote for "special order" with the hammer poll & the "v" shaped jaw instead of two "flat" jaws with the wire gripping notch running the length of one jaw. They certainly wanted that "v" jaw hard & got it so hard it was brittle & chipped.
Don't know why they'd go to the trouble of putting the RED DEVIL # on a special order piece -- maybe just a bit of subtle advertising in case someone asked, "where'd you get that made?"
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: Aunt Phil on March 28, 2016, 10:12:08 PM: TIG weldor with a kid like Nola on a 7" grinder for 10 minutes.

You guys have no idea of the things weldors do to pliers, screwdrivers and wrenches.

Usual tipoff will be the enhancement won't be centered.

You can see the weld in the one pic, at the jaw end of the pliers.
Kid on the grinder was awake that day too.
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: Yadda on March 28, 2016, 10:27:33 PM: Great find regardless. I want it to be manufactured, but I vote homemade.
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: gibsontool on March 28, 2016, 10:45:43 PM: Looks too good to have been done by a welder with a grinder, I'd have to go with a forging.
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: wvtools on March 29, 2016, 06:47:33 AM: Quote from: Plyerman on March 28, 2016, 09:29:08 PM
Quote from: wvtools on March 28, 2016, 08:50:15 PM
The EAIA Directory of American Toolmaker's says Smith and Hemenway changed their name to Red Devil in 1944. I have a 1960 Red Devil catalog. Are you sure about the Crescent date? Maybe they took it over later?

.........

Hmmmm, I know nothing for certain, just what I read on Alloy Artifacts here: http://alloy-artifacts.org/crescent-tool.html

It says that Crescent Tool bought out Smith & Hemenway, makers of the Red Devil line of pliers, in 1926. Then later on Mr. Smith (formerly of Smith & Heminway) resurrected the Red Devil name for his line of glass cutters and such. But the old line of Red Devil plier tools all became Crescent branded items.

So I dunno..?

That makes sense given the shift in gears of types of tools with the Red Devil name around that time. Thanks for the information; I did not know that.
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: Aunt Phil on March 29, 2016, 01:25:00 PM: Quote from: gibsontool on March 28, 2016, 10:45:43 PM
Looks too good to have been done by a welder with a grinder, I'd have to go with a forging.

Blow up the picture of the jaw and you see the weld along with the crater full of dirt. Looks like a TIG job to me.
Acid test would probably display the weld even at this point in time.
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: Plyerman on March 29, 2016, 09:05:58 PM: Thanks for all the comments guys. I think Stan may be on to something with his observation that the special v-jaws AND the hammer pol suggest a special factory order of some sort. But there's probably no way to be 100% sure. :-/
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: Aunt Phil on March 30, 2016, 02:07:05 PM: Wash em up good with some Dawn dish soap, then sit the jaw in a mug of vinegar for a couple minutes. Pull em out to air dry.
Look at them in sunlight or LED flashlight light.
Bet you can see the weld line develop.
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: Northwoods on March 30, 2016, 03:16:25 PM: Don't think so....
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: Plyerman on March 30, 2016, 06:33:57 PM: Quote from: Aunt Phil on March 30, 2016, 02:07:05 PM
Wash em up good with some Dawn dish soap, then sit the jaw in a mug of vinegar for a couple minutes. Pull em out to air dry.
Look at them in sunlight or LED flashlight light.
Bet you can see the weld line develop.

That sounds easy enough. Thanks, I'll give it a try!
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: gibsontool on March 30, 2016, 10:27:15 PM: If you try out Phil method I sure like to here the results.
Title: Re: Old combination pliers, genuine or no?
Post by: Bus on April 01, 2016, 04:22:24 PM: I think it is a modification and I have seen even better ones. I sold King Harrington's collection at auction a few years ago and he had
modified several tools that looked original. A few of these were purchased by the late Glenn Ficken and are on the next Wrenching News Auction. See Lots 393, 394 and maybe 398.

(http://wrenchingnews.com/2016-york-auction/photos/Y15-0381-399.jpg)