Tool Talk
Blacksmith and Metal Working Forum => Blacksmith and Metalworking Forum => Topic started by: Branson on November 22, 2014, 07:26:03 AM
-
Found this on eBay, and remembered there was some interest in diagonal peins:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Antique-Blacksmith-Farrier-36-Oz-Hammer-diagonal-Cross-Pein-Old-Tool-/151484387483?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23452c509b
-
I think will try for that,I'ts the first one I have ever seen.
-
ahhh that's cross-eyed smithy hammer!
I heard that, I'm much too dull to think them up own my own... :lipsrsealed:
-
That's a cool hammer. Are you still in it Gibby? And do you strike lefty?
new they are ~$90-$120
Chilly
-
Yup, I'm still in. Thanks for the info on the new price, I wouldn't have thought they'd be that much. I'm right handed, mostly.I bat left handed and deal cards left handed but I'm sure if I swung a hammer left handed I'd hurt myself, or others.
Jim
-
Yup, I'm still in. Thanks for the info on the new price, I wouldn't have thought they'd be that much. I'm right handed, mostly.I bat left handed and deal cards left handed but I'm sure if I swung a hammer left handed I'd hurt myself, or others.
Jim
Well.... that's a left-handed diagonal pein hammer...
-
Yup, I'm still in. Thanks for the info on the new price, I wouldn't have thought they'd be that much. I'm right handed, mostly.I bat left handed and deal cards left handed but I'm sure if I swung a hammer left handed I'd hurt myself, or others.
Jim
Well.... that's a left-handed diagonal pein hammer...
???
-
I want this mainly for a collection of hammers, not necessarily to use, but the way it was explained to me by an old smithy you had a right and a left and this allowed for less movement or positioning of the piece you were working on, a big plus with a heavy or awkward piece. He also said it helped a bit with being able to see the work piece better. Whats the opinion from some of you guys?
-
Yup, I'm still in. Thanks for the info on the new price, I wouldn't have thought they'd be that much. I'm right handed, mostly.I bat left handed and deal cards left handed but I'm sure if I swung a hammer left handed I'd hurt myself, or others.
Jim
Well.... that's a left-handed diagonal pein hammer...
???
Diagonal pein hammers, are the only ones I know of that have a handing... They are diagonal, so you can hold your piece, and your hammer at a comfortable angle, rather than straight 90s, which are unnatural. So, one that is angled like this \ is a right handed. Because you're holding your work in your left hand at a slight angle. Whereas one that is angled like this / is for a left hander, because you are holding the work in your right hand instead.
-
Twilight. Thanks for your response, thinking about it a bit, that makes more sense than what I was told years ago. Unfortunately I can't talk to my old buddy as he passed on years ago.
-
That's why I brought it up -I'd hate for you to buy a user, then just be frustrated when using it. The diagonal peins aren't just handed, the technique for their use is slightly different often. They are supposed to be very ergonomic when used a certain way. I would guess that, if you surveyed smith's who have actually used one correctly for a while, 25% wouldn't care for them.
Being a silversmith, I am just guessing, and never having swung a diagonal pein myself. But, being a silversmith who believes that my material takes the shape of my form, I get into a lot if weird places. Especially with synclastic forms. I think that, even though I am tapping instead of whomping, the swing and feel is similar. Especially after several hours.
Chilly
-
A good smith would have 15-25 hammers at the ready, in a tong and hammer rack. Definitely need a straight and diagonal peen hammers, and use them often. More so than a cross peen. Probably more needful today in all the artistic work that is done. The guys I have noticed what made one for themselves, make use of them often.
-
A little different for silversmith. On my post of my bench hammers I had ~49, but that is half the equation. I have a lot of stakes also. Weird shapes. My material works cold, but constant annealing is needed.
What I was getting at before is that I have heard that a lot of blacksmiths who have been at it for some time before using a diagonal, when taught to use it in some weird, Norwegion or Swedish ergonomically correct position do not like or feel comfortable doing it.
-
This is right handed, I thought??? But really, depends on what you want that pein to do....draw or fan across the width of the piece. Argument can be made that both can be used by a right hander.
-
They sell for righties and lefties. Twilight had a good description above.
Chilly
-
Chilly,
I know they do. I've been blacksmithing for several years. I'm just stating what I believe it to be.
Of course, it may all be in how we look at the pein and describe it....does the / or \ describe looking at it head on, or how it is oriented when in use???
The hammer picture I attached, is the hammer in the auction link.
It is a right handed diagonal pein, in my opinion.
But, what do I know, I'm just another anonymous person on the internet that has been blacksmithing a ~few~ years.
-
I'm struggling to understand what really makes it a right or left hand tool. Holding the piece differently would seem to make it ambidextrous.
-
This is right handed, I thought??? But really, depends on what you want that pein to do....draw or fan across the width of the piece. Argument can be made that both can be used by a right hander.
Nope, that's a leftie... If you hold it with the pein facing down, and you're looking to draw it out, that hammer would have to be held in the left hand...
I suppose you COULD use it as a righty in that way... But I think you'd be better served with a cross pein in that instance... It aounds uncomfortable, but I'm not sure... Never used a diagonal before. Would love to find one.
When I get home, I'll make a sketch and post it to illustrate.
-
Okay, here's a *rough* sketch. All images assume the pein is pointed downward for use...
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/IMG_20141124_075521_zps56765c89.jpg)
So, as you can see, the cross pein requires your hand to be either straight over the work, or at 180 degrees to draw it out. Neither are terribly comfortable.
The straight pein works at 90 degrees, which is definitely more comfortable for drawing out, but still a little off ergonomically.
The diagonals, however, match how we would naturally hold our piece for maximum comfort while working. And, now you can see orientation on them, again, if the pein is pointed DOWN towards the work. The angle in my sketch is a little extreme, but it gets the idea across.
You COULD use a left diagonal in your right hand if you wanted the pein parallel to the work to spread it instead of draw it, as mentioned. I have seen combination diagonals before. Where it is a righty on one face, and a lefty on the other, allowing you the use of both in one tool.
-
Personally, I think the designation of right hand or left hand diagonal pein is misleading. I believe after some further research that it is simply a moniker as to the way the pein leans, and nothing else, and has nothing to do with the users hand.
Otherwise, why would anyone want a combination left/right diagonal pein hammer?? Peins on a diagonal only serve to make certain operations easier, and it varies from piece to piece as to what is comfortable and when.
Twilight, I have to know, are you self-taught or have you served an apprenticeship under a master?
It wasn't that long ago you were gathering all the tools of the trade.
I've been teaching myself for the last eight years, and everyday I wake up breathing is a new learning day, for me. I try to keep and open mind about all things blacksmithing.
-
Personally, I think the designation of right hand or left hand diagonal pein is misleading. I believe after some further research that it is simply a moniker as to the way the pein leans, and nothing else, and has nothing to do with the users hand.
Otherwise, why would anyone want a combination left/right diagonal pein hammer?? Peins on a diagonal only serve to make certain operations easier, and it varies from piece to piece as to what is comfortable and when.
Twilight, I have to know, are you self-taught or have you served an apprenticeship under a master?
It wasn't that long ago you were gathering all the tools of the trade.
I've been teaching myself for the last eight years, and everyday I wake up breathing is a new learning day, for me. I try to keep and open mind about all things blacksmithing.
You've definitely got a point. A tool is for what you use it for. I've always seen them referred to as left/right diagonals. I can't think of any other thing to call them that would offer a clue to orientation otherwise... Heck, I always get front-slash and backslash confused! XD But left and right handed I can wrap my head around the mechanics of.
I am apprenticing with a master... but he's a bit scatterbrained, so I am largely self taught. I apologize if I come off as a 'know it all' He who has a little knowledge the best fool makes. And I know that's very true of myself. So please do tell me when I'm wrong. I am still learning. Everything I say is just to the best of my knowledge... I haven't even been at it a year yet.
I'm still wrangling up tools as I come to need them... But, I think that's true even of people who've been doing it for a decade :P It's nice being able to make a lot of them, though. I'd love to find a power hammer, even though I really don't want to use it at this point... It's important to me to be able to do everything by hand, and not rely on power tools. I really want to become skilled. Not just capable of producing things.
-
Heavy double ended diagonal (or twist face) hammers (left & right)
were still are used by saw doctors to remove kinks from large (mainly circular) saw blades...
Available from: http://www.sharptool.com/products/Hammers.htm
-
The right hand/left hand drawing works, but the idea suffers if you are fullering the width rather than the length. Don't you think?
-
The right hand/left hand drawing works, but the idea suffers if you are fullering the width rather than the length. Don't you think?
Maybe so... But I didn't coin the term. To the best of my knowledge, there is no other means of distinguishing between the two. If you have examples of an accepted alternative, please enlighten me. Otherwise, this is the way I THINK is most common, and the reasoning behind it presented for others who don't realize there is a difference to be made.
And, I know text doesn't convey intent well, I didn't mean any of that snidely. I'd welcome being corrected. I've just never seen anything to the contrary.
-
Too rich for me. I'm out.
-
Looking at Twilight Fenrir's drawing above, I would agree that for a right handed person, working single handed, i.e. without a striker, a diagonal pein hammer is ergonomically better than either a straight of cross pein.... Most power hammers have the anvil at an angle to allow the work-piece to pass through its length - for hand forging a similar action across the face of the anvil would be permitted with a diagonal pein hammer.
To answer Branson's point, you would only need to change from a RH to a LH hammer to work across the width, assuming the same stance at the anvil...
-
Like I said, I think the designation is only to note which way the diagonal is laying when you look at it. To me, a diagonal with the top laying to the left side, when in my right hand, would strike in a perpendicular manner to the anvil face. Great for drawing the length of a rod or bar.
Likewise, a peen on a diagonal the opposite way (top laying to the right, when looking at it straight on) would put that peen on a parallel to the anvil face when standing normal....great for fullering the rod or bar to a wider dimension.
To those who have never hit hot steel, this probably sounds like a bunch of gobbley gook, but to me, after eight plus years doing this as a hobby, it makes perfect sense.
Twilight---Sorry if I came across strongly. Didn't mean to. Just very passionate about blacksmithing, and want anything I see or read about it on the internet to make sense and not mislead anyone.
As to the power hammer, I'm still trying to find one myself. Definitely a bonus to have if you can afford one. I'll probably just enlist the help of a buddy and build one myself.
-
Really, both of you are correct.
Keykeeper, it is a designation. If you go to buy one new you would get the one you want by telling them right or left.
And, I know that you are largely self taught, but like I said, there is a method of using a cross pein thst makes it the best tool for the job. As a self taught person, who is very passionate about smithing, you have an opportunity to find out what this method of using a cross pein is. You may even like this method.
The use of handedhess in this tool has to do with ergonomics and how you can see the work. Here is my best (although silversmith) explanation. (I welcome correction. I only claim 85% accuracy, and my life has been a series of course corrections. Constantly adjusting.)
If holding a piece with your left hand, with your arm held a natural way your fist in front of your you and lined up somewhere in the vicinity of your centerline, the pein lines up straight in front of you.
Here is my rough drawing (excuse my art, I am an engineer, after all)
(http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac6/chillylulu/diagonalpeinModel640z480_zps1df6cf47.jpg) (http://s880.photobucket.com/user/chillylulu/media/diagonalpeinModel640z480_zps1df6cf47.jpg.html)
Dimensions are to scale (measured off of me. I just ate, by the way. Nevermind the last one, Mrs. Chillly says I am a little thicker.)
The fact that any tool can be used in other ways does not affect the truth that there can often be, sometimes a little less obviously, a very good method for which the tool was intended. This is one of those. The double cross peins are simply made for everyone. You can imagine that lefties are rarer.
I think that both keykeeper and twilight show great knowledge and passion about smithing. I for one, would like to see some of their work. I imagine it is pretty cool. And, hey, we haven't seen any if Branson's work lately, have we?
Sincerely,
Chilly
Edited to add the following picture:
-
Agreed Chili
That would be designation seen in a tool room or machine shop as well.
-
Agreed Chili
That would be designation seen in a tool room or machine shop as well.
Thats my thought, but I am only 51 vs 49 percent certain. Looking at the listing picture vs my diagram, it looks as if it is a right handed pein ( like key pointed out)
I called it a left handed pein based on current companies advertisements for peinedness. I feel my picture is right, but maybe not. If my picture is correct, than I was wrong in calling it a left handed pein.
We need a ruling or concensus. Branson? Twilight? Keykeeper?
Chilly
-
Interesting discussion. The "Big Blu" (and other makers) website catalog shows them this way:
#7 Right hand
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn48/kxxr/tools/hammer-rh-diagonal-peen-romantic-380x285_zps68fe2b27.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/kxxr/media/tools/hammer-rh-diagonal-peen-romantic-380x285_zps68fe2b27.jpg.html)
#8 Left hand
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn48/kxxr/tools/hammer-lh-diagonal-peen-romantic-380x285_zps7a4c1839.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/kxxr/media/tools/hammer-lh-diagonal-peen-romantic-380x285_zps7a4c1839.jpg.html)
-
Really, both of you are correct.
Keykeeper, it is a designation. If you go to buy one new you would get the one you want by telling them right or left.
And, I know that you are largely self taught, but like I said, there is a method of using a cross pein thst makes it the best tool for the job. As a self taught person, who is very passionate about smithing, you have an opportunity to find out what this method of using a cross pein is. You may even like this method.
The use of handedhess in this tool has to do with ergonomics and how you can see the work. Here is my best (although silversmith) explanation. (I welcome correction. I only claim 85% accuracy, and my life has been a series of course corrections. Constantly adjusting.)
If holding a piece with your left hand, with your arm held a natural way your fist in front of your you and lined up somewhere in the vicinity of your centerline, the pein lines up straight in front of you.
Here is my rough drawing (excuse my art, I am an engineer, after all)
(http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac6/chillylulu/diagonalpeinModel640z480_zps1df6cf47.jpg) (http://s880.photobucket.com/user/chillylulu/media/diagonalpeinModel640z480_zps1df6cf47.jpg.html)
Dimensions are to scale (measured off of me. I just ate, by the way. Nevermind the last one, Mrs. Chillly says I am a little thicker.)
The fact that any tool can be used in other ways does not affect the truth that there can often be, sometimes a little less obviously, a very good method for which the tool was intended. This is one of those. The double cross peins are simply made for everyone. You can imagine that lefties are rarer.
I think that both keykeeper and twilight show great knowledge and passion about smithing. I for one, would like to see some of their work. I imagine it is pretty cool. And, hey, we haven't seen any if Branson's work lately, have we?
Sincerely,
Chilly
Edited to add the following picture:
I think you've got the diagram a bit off... the hammer should be held perpendicular to the anvil, and the piece you are holding would be at the angle. The way you show it, you'd either have to hold the piece straight out of your belly, or way off to the side. Whereas, if you look at my much cruder diagram. if you hold the hammer straight, the piece is a much more comfortable angle to work with. Which would fall in line with "Big Blu"'s nomenclature... also... that's a beautiful hammer <3
If you'd really like to see some of my work... here's a link to a lot of it. It's still fairly crude in my opinion ^^; But, I'm starting to make stuff I like more and more... I'm really enjoying making rams heads out of railroad spikes.
http://s137.photobucket.com/user/Midnight_Fenrir/library/Blacksmithing
-
I'm not sure Twilight, you cannot hold a hammer straight out. So I'm not getting it without showing a person.
I can adjust the diagrams if I understand it...
Chilly
-
I guess this topic may have been 'beat to death', but it did pique my curiosity enough to do a little research, as some threads will do. I found good information on the website of ABS Mastersmith Ed Caffrey. As I explored his site, checking out his work, I realized that he lives right here in my home town, just a mile or so from me. That was back in November and for Christmas, my wife gave me one of his pens. It is a beautiful piece of work and I have posted some pictures of it in another thread.
Anyway, for those that have any unanswered questions or remaining interest in the angle peen hammers, there is a good description and some photos of how this accomplished artisan uses them. If you visit the site, be sure to look around. If you are interested in this kind of work, you will enjoy the visit and appreciate the examples shown.
http://www.caffreyknives.net/angle_peen-hammers.html
-
KXXR, interesting, I had never seen a split handle on a hammer, is that to
take out the shock of the blow ?
Frank
-
Really, both of you are correct.
Keykeeper, it is a designation. If you go to buy one new you would get the one you want by telling them right or left.
And, I know that you are largely self taught, but like I said, there is a method of using a cross pein thst makes it the best tool for the job. As a self taught person, who is very passionate about smithing, you have an opportunity to find out what this method of using a cross pein is. You may even like this method.
The use of handedhess in this tool has to do with ergonomics and how you can see the work. Here is my best (although silversmith) explanation. (I welcome correction. I only claim 85% accuracy, and my life has been a series of course corrections. Constantly adjusting.)
If holding a piece with your left hand, with your arm held a natural way your fist in front of your you and lined up somewhere in the vicinity of your centerline, the pein lines up straight in front of you.
Here is my rough drawing (excuse my art, I am an engineer, after all)
(http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac6/chillylulu/diagonalpeinModel640z480_zps1df6cf47.jpg) (http://s880.photobucket.com/user/chillylulu/media/diagonalpeinModel640z480_zps1df6cf47.jpg.html)
Dimensions are to scale (measured off of me. I just ate, by the way. Nevermind the last one, Mrs. Chillly says I am a little thicker.)
The fact that any tool can be used in other ways does not affect the truth that there can often be, sometimes a little less obviously, a very good method for which the tool was intended. This is one of those. The double cross peins are simply made for everyone. You can imagine that lefties are rarer.
I think that both keykeeper and twilight show great knowledge and passion about smithing. I for one, would like to see some of their work. I imagine it is pretty cool. And, hey, we haven't seen any if Branson's work lately, have we?
Sincerely,
Chilly
Edited to add the following picture:
This is my argument, entirely, Chilly. How a person wants the pein to be oriented is based solely on what operation the smith is doing at that particular time. Knife makers would want the pein to lie parallel to the bar, for widening of it, as in a knife blade. Other smiths would want the pein to be perpendicular to the bar as they hold it on the anvil face, to fuller and lengthen the bar. Your drawing illustrates my point, somewhat. At least as to how the pein would be oriented to the anvil. Myself, I use the pein of my regular cross pein to lengthen a bar by fullering it, then flattening it. Together, that results in drawing out the bar to a longer length.
I will post some of my work, as I find time and the photos to go along. I just finished some squirrel cookers for my cousin and sent them cross country to him for Christmas presents. I don't specialize in any one thing. I have made some simple knives, bottle openers, myriads of hooks, decorative hearts for wall hangings (Chicks dig hearts!), candle holders, tools for use on the anvil (hot cuts). Always looking for another project to challenge myself to make. I don't make any money from this, usually. It is more therapy to me. I work in a high-stress field, and blacksmithing removes me and my mind from that crap, which would make most members here cringe I what I hear and see on an average day. I have to escape it, somehow.