Tool Talk
What's-It Forum => What's-It Forum => Topic started by: RedVise on July 24, 2014, 08:30:41 PM
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These came out of a machinist chest, but look like brace bits, yes ?
So, what use ? I think I see 2 chamfer bits, reamer, forstner , screwdriver, but the ones on the left? Shallow reamers ?
Looks like some might be user modified also ?
Thanks
Brian
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Maybe tools for working on wooden spoke wagon and car wheels ?
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I had found some nearly the same during cleanup of the shop. Given the history there, I was inclined to believe they were reamers.
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They look to be shallow reamers fore removing or reducing the top thread of a new threaded hole. On a precision piece, sometimes the top thread was removed so there was little likelihood of it pulling up and ruining the fit of two pieces bolted together. Got this from an old machinist years ago.
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Yes, that is a good practice, one of the ways to differentiate the amateurs from the pros.
Chilly
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I have seen the 3 on the left used for reaming, cleaning the burr on the ID of a pipe cut. The next 3 appear to be counter sink bits. The one at the bottom, long one looks like a forstner bit.
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I have seen the 3 on the left used for reaming, cleaning the burr on the ID of a pipe cut.
Yep. Braces were used in far more trades than just woodworking, particularly before WWII.
The screwdriver bit on the right would be used on what the hand woodworking tool guys are calling a split nut, such as you find on older (woodworking) saw handles: a round nut with a screwdriver slot in it.
There are some new bits to me in that group, especially the one on top. I guess that's a hole saw, but the end that would fit into the driving tool is all wrong for a standard brace - at least, I don't think it would fit in brace jaws designed for a tapered square. Maybe there was a specialized driving handle for it.
The third and fourth from the right have me puzzled, too; maybe a close up would clarify their function.
It's possible to get sucked into, um, gathering all kinds of brace bits for different trades.
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"Braces were used in far more trades than just woodworking, particularly before WWII"
Really ! Just didn't think of a machinist work on steel with a brace, tough job !
Better pics tonite. Thanks
Brian
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I have picked up several* carbon steel twist bits over the years that would have been used for drilling metal. No doubt not an easy task, but the torque a brace offers would have its benefits. I suspect this would have been an apprentice job: "Just lean hard on the tool and keep turning, lad. I'll be back to let you know when it's time for lunch."
Interestingly, though, I also have a breast drill with a two-jaw chuck for tapered shanks. This makes a lot of sense, since it's hard to get the a hand-tightened three-jaw chuck tight enough on large bits, at least for me; they invariably spin in the chuck when the going gets heavy. So it's possible these bits could have been used in a breast drill rather than a brace. But, given that I've seen just one breast drill with brace-type jaws - and that one a late Stanley (based on the color), I think a lot of braces got used to grunt holes through iron and steel.
*Well...Dictionary.com defines "several" as "more than two but fewer than many." So it's possible, just barely possible, that I'm understating how many I have.
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Here's a close up of the modified bits.
Looks like reamers are from Wiley & Russell and Wells Brothers, both in Greenfield Mass.
Brian
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Pipe Reamers
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In your close up, the rightmost two are somewhat worn countersink bits; the center two, I think, specialized screwdriver bits. The leftmost two are a puzzle to me.
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The two on the left are counter bores for sinking the area around a previously drilled hole. Think of saw nuts, as an example. The top one in the first photo is probably another of these rather than a hole saw. The third from the left is a driver for split nuts -- like those on pre 1875 American saws (the English saw makers used split nuts until much later.) The fourth from the left also counter bores, but before the center hole is drilled. This one looks to have been "refreshed" or modified for the purpose, but this style was also commercially made. The two on the right are in fact chamfer bits for setting screw heads at or slightly below the surface (wood worker tools).
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"Braces were used in far more trades than just woodworking, particularly before WWII"
Really ! Just didn't think of a machinist work on steel with a brace, tough job !
Brian
Some of us in the tool room even today use speeder wrenches with a countersink mounted in a modified socket for hole chamfering "on the fly".
Ya do whatcha gotta do.
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Brace drills were the only option until breast drills came about, except for a few exceptions. Besides speed is not needed to drill holes in iron, pressure and a sharp bit are what is needed. Muscle power was the motive force for about everything, portable that is, before 1900. Imagine drilling holes by hand, or having the choice of doing it with a drill press running off a belt on a line shaft. I have a good set of metal drilling bits with tapered square shank. We forget too that before 1900, drilling in iron was more common than drilling in steel, iron is much softer.
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This thread jogged my memory. I have a brace pipe reamer, too. I guess the hole through it is for a handle to put more pressure on the ream.
](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/gpritch/tools/moreleifstools005_zpsdbf8f269.jpg)
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Or so you can use it without the brace. If a bar wasnplaced in it you could use it on a lathe or power machine.
Chilly
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Pritch,
In the bottom center of the picture is the cousin to the tool in this thread: http://www.papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=12070.0 (http://www.papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=12070.0). If you happen to know what it is, you can solve a problem!
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It is hard to see the details in the picture, but the far right countersink brace bit looks like a rosette pattern (typically 6 to 8 cutting edges), which was used on wood. The second from the right looks like snail pattern countersink (one or two cutting edges), usually listed in the old catalogs for wood or metal. The flatter, spade tip countersink brace bits with two cutting edges are metal only. The far left may be a modified or well used one of those.
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oK, on top is a counterbore for centering a large hole on a 1/4" pilot hole (holesaw).
3 pipe reamers, 3 countersinks. The first is a machinist countersink (goes slow but does a good job in metal) and the other two are rose countersinks (better for softer metals and wood).
Regular driver bit, then 2 user modified bits (I believe they were probably made for removing and replacing valve seats, think plumbing)
and then 2 split nut drivers (or spanners if we are being proper old school).
On the bottom is a standard Forstner bit for a brace
(drills a flat bottomed hole and also can drill a partial arc hole, either overlapping a previous hole or 1/2 a hole from an edge, etc. )
yours Scott
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wvtools, scottg , just saw these replies, thanks guys !
Here is the box they came out of, now refinished.
I posted it over on GG but didn't share with you guys!
Not the best pic, but it came out nice for a low end box.
<gratuitous pic>
Brian
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Just for the record, drilling metal with a brace bit ain't a biggie if your bit is sharp. (A DrillDoctor is DEFINITELY worth owning — and using as LIGHTLY as necessary on older bits.) I own a biggish handful I've used "in the field" to repair horse-drawn farm machinery, gate hardware and so on, when I've been too lazy/frugal to take a machine or project back within reach of a power cord. Helpful hint: I own 2-jawed braces with three different "throws" — 6", 10" & 14" — for various torque desires, particularly in wood.
Going back to drilling metal: I'm a strong advocate of "stepping up" the size of drilling to reduce the workload on both me and the larger bits. Oh, and with a nod to modernization, WD-40 — or even dribbles of oil off of a dipstick — have been helpful too.
Finally, in an old blacksmithing manual I read that the suggested speed for a 1/2" bit was 50 RPM. It's also said that "Instant gratification takes too long in today's world." What, me hurry?
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The hole saw is probably also a plumbers tool - used to cut holes in galvanised iron/steel water storage tanks for inlet and outlet fittings - I have an old set that just have a tee bar handle, rather than used in a brace.... (They have an inner support, and pressure is provided by a screw passing throigh a pre-drilled pilot hole.) They must have taken some effort to get thorugh a 1/8" (3mm) thick tank wall....
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Pritch,
In the bottom center of the picture is the cousin to the tool in this thread: http://www.papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=12070.0 (http://www.papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=12070.0). If you happen to know what it is, you can solve a problem!
You know, I bought all this stuff at an estate sale of an old plumber, so I assume it's a plumbing tool of some kind. My dad was also an old plumber, but I have all his old stuff and he didn't have anything like it. So I'm a little confused myself. I'll dig it out later and see if I can figure it out. Or, failing that, there is yet another old plumber in my town that I have been meaning to show some stuff to, so I'll throw it in with that and see if he has a clue.
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Just for the record, drilling metal with a brace bit ain't a biggie if your bit is sharp. What, me hurry?
I was once in the old downtown hardware store of Yreka Ca. Cooley and Pollard.
Well I was looking for a special bit and was searching some really old drill drawers in the back. What do I find, but metal twist bits, with a brace shank, NOS, and the original prices still on them. $.73 , $.28 , $.44 etc.
I got a generous handful and headed to the counter.
The guy at the counter looks me over and says,
"You know, these are not high speed bits.
So just go at your usual pace."
heeheheh
yours Scott
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I've seen a lot of pipe fitting tools. I think the 2nd item is more a tap than a bore. If it is a boring tool those threads, I assume, would be for keeping the bit going.
Pipe wall for 4"is ~ 1/4" thick, 8" pipe is just over 5/16". Many of the tanks here have walls even thicker.
Hole saws leave a plug after the hole is cut. This bit has a flat flute on the bottom that would cut through all the material - so it is not a hole saw. The definitive word here is saw. A hole saw is a saw that follows a circular path, usually around a pilot bit.
The shank is way to big for any ordinary brace. Compare the shank on the 2nd tool with the shank on the reamer - it is almost 3x as large.
As fine as those threads are I am guessing it is an 1½ pipe tap. It may be 1¼". The threads seem to taper, also. If I remember correctly, there should be ~11½ tpi. 1½" pipe o.d. is 1.9", 1¼" pipe o.d. is 1.66".
I haven't seen very many taps with a tapered shank though.
So, here is my list of guesses (left to right):
1. Wrench
2. 1½" or 1¼" Pipe Tap
3. (on top) pipe reamer
4. Plumbers cut off tool
5. Some kind of caulking iron
6. A plumber's caulking iron
7. Pipe reamer
8. Another packing iron
9. Ceiling iron
Chilly
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Plumber tools, hmm. It jogged some memory cells loose, and I think that big tapered reamer may be for lead pipe. Elbow and Tees, were not available in lead, the plumbers had to fabricate as they went. There was another tool too, for chambering a hole to make a Tee. Have one in the shed some place.
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Lead pipe reamers usually have a single cutting edge.... multi-fluted ones are probably more used on copper or iron pipes..
(http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/construction/plumbing/Manual-Plumbing-Practice/images/Fig-215-Tap-Borer.jpg)
known as a tap borer, it was used to cut a hole in a lead pipe for the insertion of a brass tap (soldered in using a 'wiped' joint)..
The lead jointing tool is like a double giant pencil sharpener, with with internal and external cutting edges...
The mystery tool looks like a lead caulking tool, for hammering lead wool into the joints on cast iron pipes, but never seen a version for a power hammer (mystery tool??) - but possibly for underground water pipes that have much thicker walls and collars than drainage pipes....
(http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/construction/plumbing/Standard-Practical/images/Fig-5-Various-Styles-of-Calking-Tools.jpg)
In Fig. 5 are to be seen various styles of calking tools, some of which may not have been previously seen by all of our readers.
The plumber's cold chisels are of numerous variety, ranging from an 18-in. brick chisel to very small styles.
B represents a blunt cold chisel much used in cutting soil pipe, which is not so easily gotten out of order as the thinner and sharper chisels, such as A. C, D, and E represent different styles of regular calking tools, having blades of different lengths and thickness. F is known as a throat iron, and is very useful in calking such fittings as bends, where there is little room for a direct blow. G and H represent right- and left-hand offset calking tools. It often happens that lines of soil pipe are run in corners, and it is clearly seen that tools of this description are very useful in calking the part of the joint that is on the back side of the pipe. K is another tool for the same purpose.
L is a picking-out chisel, used in picking out the lead of a calked joint, its shape being such that the work may be done to advantage.
M is a stub-calking iron with which almost a direct blow can be given, and of greater force than can be gotten with the regular calking irons, as there is no springing of the tool.
N and O represent yarning irons, the former stiff, and the latter having a spring blade. They are used in forcing the oakum into place, one tool being preferred by some workmen, and the other by others. P is known as a ceiling iron, and is used in calking joints in such positions that a downward blow cannot be delivered in the usual manner. A joint very close to the ceiling, for instance, may be made with this tool, the blow of the hammer being delivered on the offset near the handle.
Read more: http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/construction/plumbing/Standard-Practical/The-Plumber-s-Tools-Part-3.html#ixzz39L0BfT8u
The large combined drill/tap with the tapered shank in pritch's image is the type used on a water pipe branch boring machine - for tapping directly into high pressure water mains - the tool drills and taps the hole without loss of water, and the branch pipe with a stop tap is inserted... will try to find an illustration...
Update - like this....
(http://catalog.muellercompany.com/viewimage.ashx?t=c&c=14) or this (http://vintageadsandbooks.com/images/zb/zb755.jpg)
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(http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/construction/plumbing/Manual-Plumbing-Practice/images/Fig-215-Tap-Borer.jpg)
When you sharpen these up? They work fantastic for cleaning up the inside burr on freshly cut PVC pipe.
You can make a tapered countersink in a wooden hole too,
but, plastic pipe where they shine like crazy.
yours Scott
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When you sharpen these up? They work fantastic for cleaning up the inside burr on freshly cut PVC pipe.
You can make a tapered countersink in a wooden hole too,
but, plastic pipe where they shine like crazy.
yours Scott
This is what we use for CPVC pipe (Fire protection uses cpvc pipe. It is orange, UL listed, and pretty much application specific.):
(http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac6/chillylulu/Tools%20Sized/july%20tools/41GZBnXOYKL._SY300__zpslckednap.jpg) (http://s880.photobucket.com/user/chillylulu/media/Tools%20Sized/july%20tools/41GZBnXOYKL._SY300__zpslckednap.jpg.html)
The blades go through tu the other side and are used for outside reaming also.
BTW -this is the type of reamer for copper pipe, works for trimming lead also:
(http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac6/chillylulu/Tools%20Sized/july%20tools/5069_zpsft9zywo_edit_1407089575529_zps0ayygft7.jpg) (http://s880.photobucket.com/user/chillylulu/media/Tools%20Sized/july%20tools/5069_zpsft9zywo_edit_1407089575529_zps0ayygft7.jpg.html)
CPVC pipe is going the way of the dinosaur. There are combatibility problems with almost everything and cpvc pipe. In one area low voltage wires were laid across the tubing. The local AHJ (fire department) made the owner replace the pipe to 1-1/2' to either side of the offending wire. I'd hate to be the electrician explaining that cost to his boss.
Chilly
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I inherited one of those reamers Chilly shows for CPVC pipe from my uncle. Works a treat on PVC, too, and faster than the utility knife I used before.
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I inherited one of those reamers Chilly shows for CPVC pipe from my uncle. Works a treat on PVC, too, and faster than the utility knife I used before.
I think that most cpvc tools are the same as pvc or abs. We can't use the blade type cutters though. Could cause micro-fractures.
Billman, I think your research pretty much nailed the plumbing tools. We were talking about wall thicknesses earlier. Undrground pipe has really thick walls, and alot of it is lined with concrete or something. Even the smaller stuff like 4" and 6" pipe. Everytime we came closer to yhe answer the work got harder!
Chilly
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The longer I think about it I keep coming back to the same thing. For whatever reason, if you only wanted the oakum (or caulk) to be a set depth in the joint, then the little spur on the side would be the depth-stop as it hits the outside of the bell. If it is indeed a caulking tool. the one I have has a really mushroomed head, though, so it's been routinely hit hard with a hammer.
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They just had a piece on This Old House TV show that showed caulking and pouring a lead joint on a sewer pipe and I though they drove the lead in after pouring it in place and after it cooled to tighten the joint.
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You have to set it.
I have lead wool. The last time I used it was to caulk 8" pipe threaded into a flange.
The pipe was hot dip galvanized after fabrication, burning any dope out.
I've stopped cast iron leaks with lead wool and more often casting defects have been stopped by hammering a #2 lead pencil into the leak.
Chilly
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OK my favorite picture to re-post. I tried to buy this off ebay years ago.
I didn't get it, but I saved the picture.
You can find blowtorches. Ladles are no problem either.
Oakum/lead drivers are not too hard to get, by the pound.
All these things were available at almost every swap meet ever held.
Every town had a plumber and big towns had many. Cities had dozens and dozens.
You find the tools of the standard plumbers kit everywhere you look.
All except this part. The wrap around lead mold.
You pound in your greased oakum to make a foundation, and to even up the pipes
(cast iron drain pipes, prevalent from coast to coast.)
Next, wrap around a mold.
Then pour in your molten lead from your ladle (that you just melted over your blowtorch).
Wait a moment for the lead to set up.
Then proceed to drive the lead ring you just cast, into place.
Lead does not stick to cast iron. Hardly anything sticks to iron.
So you cast the ring, which won't seal by itself. But its lead, its soft.
You drive the ring in deeper and harder until it bottoms out in the oakum bed, and expands there. Neatly locking the pipes into place, and sealing tight.
For many many years service.
All those bent plumbers "chisels" you see, are for this job.
Just about every home and business, and everything else, had this underneath it. My house still has some lead/oakum sealed cast iron drain pipe.
Where are all the molds?
There once had to be almost as many molds as the other tools we still see so often. Unless there were other kinds of molds I don't know about, and have overlooked them.
yours Scott
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We still pack underground lead-ins coming into basements with oakum. Same old irons work like they did forever.
A lot of those asbestos containing tools were trashed. I think thats where a lot of the old lead dams went. A lot were kind of disposable anyway. Further back they used clay to make lead dams. It wasn't just for drain pipe, it was for water lines too.
Chilly