Tool Talk
What's-It Forum => What's-It Forum => Topic started by: jluzar on March 26, 2014, 06:43:26 PM
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while going through an old tool museum I took notice to a handsaw that I'd seen many times long ago . Some of the older carpenters had this saw in their jod box.
I believe it was a Disston ,about a 8 to 10 point .But what was differant about this blade was across top as it tapered narrower about 4" from the end there was a little
1/4" nub,( half moon in shape) and then it continued taper to the end .Does anyone out there know the reason for this design ?
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The purpose of the nib is highly debated in tool circles. I have rarely seen even two people reach a consensus. Some of the explanations that I have heard are:
Does nothing; decorative only;
Used to keep a pencil or nail steady while using the saw as a guide to mark a line;
Using the nib to mark a line;
Cut nails with it;
I am sure there are a half a dozen more that I cannot think of right now.
Used as a sight;
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>Does nothing; decorative only;
..."Hey, Joe, why ya filing a notch in that there saw?"
"Cause 100 years from now it will make a bunch of ol tool geezers go just nuts tryin to figgur out what it's fer..."
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I have seen thousands of posts concerning the nib on tool forums and as far as I know, no one really knows why that nib is there.
I bet Scottg has been in on many of those discussions on the Old Tools List.
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These discussions come up ever summer when I go to flea markets and antique shows.
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I remember one discussion about the "nib", Henry Disston's foreman asked if they were going to put it on their new saw, Certainly, was the answer, because they put it on when I was taught the saw trade, just don't ask me why!
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The nib is found on English hand saws, long before Disston was started - it has been discussd in TATHS (Tools and Trades History Society) newsletters many times - as stated above no consensus was reached. The most popular was a) it is purely decorative (many other tools have decorative features) b) it was used to hold a string in place to tie a wooden blade guard over the cutting edge....
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I'm of the "just for purties" school of thought. I've seen a lot of "uses" discussed and not a one of them is practical. On the other hand, like Billman writes, they aren't unique to Disston saws, and are found on saws much earlier. Nor are they the only decorative element on the tip of saw blades. Other fancy tips have been around for literally hundreds of years, tips that clearly have no utilitarian function.
Matthew Cianci ( http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/CiantiM/nib-Secrets/nibSecrets-01.asp ) sums it up this way:
"The western handsaw tradition can be traced back to early Continental saws of the 16th and 17th century which feature elaborate scroll work on the nose of the saw plate. Saws at this time were almost completely hand wrought, and these beautiful designs were the craftsman’s mark of quality and pride."
Some are much more extreme than the two Cianci shows in his article.
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"Momma, why do you cut the end off of the roast before putting it in the oven"
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Curiously, the decorative nibs shown in the Cianci article would be excellent for stopping the string holding a guard from sliding off the end of the blade, more so than the later nib of English, or Disston, saws...
Note: Disston saws are held in great esteem in the UK, so it is probably Disston continued making them in the 'English' pattern to ensure they sold well over here...
Modern saws do not have this nib, but they are usually sold with a plastic blade guard that holds itself in place....
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I can see the string holder idea, but, the straight back saw had no nib, only the skewback/curved back. Does anyone still make a curved back saw today? Only bought used saws these past 20 odd years. Like the variety as well as the prices, which are much better than in the hardware stores.
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I always thought they were more often found on straight back saws, the skew back is relatively modern...
(http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/hwpeace/p27.jpg)
This is a straight blade with a nib.
link: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?58972-Saw-nib
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I can see the string holder idea, but, the straight back saw had no nib, only the skewback/curved back.
Other way around, I think.
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Show of hands, please.
How many have seen the nib used to hold the string used to tie a saw guard in place?
How many have used the nib this way?
In both cases, how does this prevent the back of the blade from sliding out of the guard?
How many use a saw guard?
How many have seen an antique saw guard?
If this was the use of the nib, why aren't there hundreds of examples? I haven't seen one.
The other putative use of the nib as a means of tying holds that in the days before saws were sold with handles (very long before Disston!)
the string around the nibs held bundles of handleless saws together.
On the skew blades, a friend has a skew blade, with a decorative tip, that is supposedly a sesquicentennial reproduction. I'll have to check it out the next time I see it -- the claim is part of the etch on the blade.
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How many have seen the nib used to hold the string used to tie a saw guard in place?
How many have used the nib this way?
In both cases, how does this prevent the back of the blade from sliding out of the guard?
How many use a saw guard?
How many have seen an antique saw guard?
My answer is no to all those.
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Disston made (arguably but if you are going to argue you will be outvoted 100 to 1) the best hand saw steel ever created. They were coveted the world around.
Nobody rolled and ground a saw plate like Henry Disston.
With an intricately shaped and carved apple wood handle, (apple being the king of saw handle woods), connected to the best saw plate ever made,
a plain looking blade simply would not do.
While you could come up with a use for it, (and many did later and still do), the nib was part of the saw design. It was that little bit extra.
Until Frank Lloyd Wright came along espousing...........
"Plain is more modern. Plain is more manly. Stripped plain is worth more."
(which idiots still suck up today like lemmings)
The world was different.
Before people became so stupid they actually believed plain was better,..... back to the dawn of mankind............
Elaborate and decorated was the word from button hooks to bell towers. Everything made had some element of design and decoration as far back as you care to go.
But in every trade, plain is better translated to....... "I do enormously less work, get paid more!"
by architects, furniture makers, toolmakers and practically everyone with a trade.
Its no wonder its such a popular idea even today.
Modern and especially young people used to seeing everything in their life as plain as a mud fence...wonder what the nib is for.
(I am still waiting to hear anyone, anywhere say....."damn that is a pretty computer!")
But our great grandfathers didn't wonder for one second.
A saw with no nib was a lesser saw! Guaranteed.
Nibs almost never appear by accident. Intricate curves on saw totes never just materialize by themselves. Highly polished wood seldom leaks out of the cracks unbidden.
Its work. Highly skilled work.
People are not used to seeing or even appreciating skilled work anymore.
"Oh I don't need fancy. Its good enough" Is what people are trained to say since birth now. You can hear it 1000 times a day if you listen at all.
Actually, if you think about it, this directly translates to:
"I am just a peasant. I don't deserve any better"
Being a peasant who doesn't deserve any better is plenty bad enough, acting like you are proud of that? Is just embarrassing.
Fight for better.
You deserve it.
Fight
yours Scott
OH PS. I do own an antique saw guard. I have seen several too.
But none of them needed a nib to work.
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Oh yeah, if you wonder why apple was so valuable as a saw handle?
If you take a handsaw that is sharp as a razor, and saw with for 10 hours straight, you will quickly find out.
While other woods are certainly prettier and more costly, apple has this weird property that, as you use it, it becomes softer than velvet.
It almost reaches up and cradles your skin as you work. Its got this soft friction that causes it not to raise a blister, ever!
No other wood compares, in use.
If I could get a steady supply of old growth American apple, I would never use anything else.
Well I would never use anything else on a saw of my own to use.
Making a saw for sale or at least to appeal to the public demands rosewood or cocobolo or even ebony.
These are much prettier woods just sitting there, and people aren't really going to use it much anyway.
Don't believe me! Get yourself an old saw with an apple handle and sand the part where your hand goes as smooth as a baby's butt.
Now take it out and use it hard.
You'll see
yours Scott
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In Disston's book 'The Saw in History' (1916) it is stated it is purely decorative..
In Robert Grimshaw's book 'Saws' (1882) it is not mentioned at all....
Both books are available as PDF files to download on-line...
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Scott,
You really need to work on your tendency to stifle your opinions and not speak out. You've got a lot to say, man; say it!
Excellent commentary; thanks.
The only saws I've found with blade guards have been backsaws, and nibs on backsaws are pretty rare.
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The same type of saw was used by carpenters, joiners and cabinet makers. The last two tended to work in a workshop, with tools held in cabinets or racks. The carpenter, had to take his tools to the site, and while most tools would fit into a tote or bag the handsaws were often placed in the hand-cart, together with lumber, iron work etc...
There was thus a need for the edge of the saw to be kept away from anything that could damage it, also to keep the sharp edge away from unwary flesh. A wooden guard, consisting of a strip of lath would have a saw cut partially through it, and be tied to the blade and the toe and the heel. At the heel it could be looped through the handle, at the toe there was nothing to stop the string falling off - except, perhaps, the nib...
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> Elaborate and decorated was the word from button hooks to bell towers
One, can, however, go just a bit overboard....
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Scott,
You really need to work on your tendency to stifle your opinions and not speak out. You've got a lot to say, man; say it!
Yeah! How does he *really* feel?
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I can see where a nib *could" be used to keep a string in position. But if the makers wanted a way to secure a string, a simple hole in the toe of the blade would be quite superior.
I do have one saw with a blade guard. It's a five foot long (blade only) Disston one man cross cut, some thing that would be tossed in the back of a pickup or a flat bed truck. One heavy string around the middle does the job, though.
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So are these saws with the nib rare at all? I have one.
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Saws with nibs are very, very common, at least in the parts of the country where there were a decent number of people before World War II or so (not sure exactly when Disston stopped putting the nib on its saws, maybe someone else knows).
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So are these saws with the nib rare at all? I have one.
While you can't call them rare, those without nibs are much, much more common. The Disstonian Institute can give you the dates on Disston saws. But eliminating the nibs wasn't the only cost reduction in saw manufacturing. The nibbed saws have by far the best, most comfortable handles. By comparison, the modern saw handles are awkward clubs. The steel in these earlier saws is also dependable. They're a treasure to use.
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> Elaborate and decorated was the word from button hooks to bell towers
One, can, however, go just a bit overboard....
Personally I think the Disston model 43 saw, went just a little underboard.
I think, if the overall shape of the tote had been, uh, shaplier, then the standard pressed brass level vial covers wouldn't have glared out so much.
The tote itself is set really vertically. More so than practically any other successful saw tote design. I think if the tote itself were set more angled it would have taken some of the boxy glare away from the overall design.
I did an experiment.
Butchers bone saws, or meat saws, go back many generations. I guess nobody ever gave butchers a lot of respect because the saws are uniformly plain and boring. As if no butcher ever deserved a pretty saw.
But me, I like pretty. I think the world has enough ugly to go around. So when I can slip in a little pretty, that is what I do.
(http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/saws/butcher2.jpg)
(http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/saws/butcher.jpg)
yours Scott
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HOW DOES THAT GO ?
"THE BUTCHER, THE BAKER & THE MEAT SAW HANDLE MAKER !"
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Ref nibs at the front of the saw blade: I have just received Vol 16 of the TATHS Journal, one of the articles is entitled the' English Handsaw before the Indistrial Revolution', by Edward Ingraham. This is well illustrated, and the front ends of several saws are shown in detail. It was common for the tip to be decorated, often by a filed moulding shape, e.g. an ogee. The nib would thus appear to be a survival of this, although that is not to say it did not have other uses...
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That's not a nib,.........
now THIS is a nib........ heeheheheeh
(http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/nib.jpg)
yours Scott
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I like that, Scott. It sure would dress up a #1... Just kidding! (sorta)
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Why is it most block planes land nose down, when they hit the cement?
And lots of times they chip the siderail just near the nose?
This one sat around chipped, for years.
yours Scott