Tool Talk
What's-It Forum => What's-It Forum => Topic started by: jpalex on December 28, 2013, 06:39:48 PM
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I recently acquired this item and can't figure out for the life of me what it could be. The seller thought it had something to do with barrel making. I want to disagree. Do any of you have any ideas. It's right around 21" in diameter.
Thank you all.
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Side table of some bizarre sort?
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Something for cheese?
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With what looks like symbols around the rim, looks like a world globe base. Wild guess.
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Welcome to Tool Talk, interesting table, barrel making makes sense..
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With what looks like symbols around the rim, looks like a world globe base. Wild guess.
I didn't see them at first, are they astrological signs?
maybe a star map or sky globe
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Does wooden center go down as you turn adjustment knob ? Saw something like this once and it was identified as frame for setting hem on ladies skirts. May not be same but it looks similar.
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The only thing that goes up and down is the cast ring that goes all the way around.
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Rusty's share of a patent got me excited for a second, on closer look I believe close but no cigar, darn it!
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Rusty's patent look close enough to be of the same genre - in the one shown it appears a knife rises up and down, on the table of jpalex the rim rises, so allowing a knife to be run horizontally over the cheese - further research in this area needed I think - look for other patents by the same assignee??? 21" diameter is good for a cheese...
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Looking at Owen's patent, the table revoves, allowing the cheese to pass under the fixed (and adjustable for height) wire, but a hole has to be bored though the cheese first - in the one in question, the rim rises and falls, allowing the cutting wire to be pulled through the cheese - the cheese does not need to revolve, and it doesn't need a hole though the centre... I'd bet rusty has it - just a different model (maybe not patented by Owen, as there are dozens of patents for cheese cutters at the beginning of the 20th century)...
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I was wondering if this way a poor mans cutter. All you would do would be run the ring up to where you wanted to cut the cheese and by hand pull a wire threw it? With using two hands you'd simply start on the backside and pull down on the ring and threw the cheese toward you. Just a wire with two handles is all you'd need.
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This is really interesting!
It was obviously redone and painted up for the antique trade. new paint and probably a varnished plywood table, with brand new phillips pan head screws.........
But................
I am totally going with the cheese cutter theory.
Or rather, a guide for cutting cheese. The real cheese cutter would be you.
I worked in the pizza industry for much of my youth. A number of stores and eventually every job they had. So I have cut up a lot of blocks of cheese.
50-60 pound blocks was the common size then. I was going to grind it all, so random blocks were all I needed.
But if I had old school cheese wheels instead of blocks? And I wanted them to be mostly uniform for a neat retail appearance? This invention would be a great way.
I used super heavy fishing line and 2 broomstick handles. (just short cylinders of wood) But people used to use wire the same way, and I'm sure in 1905 wire would have been the ticket.
In use, you wrap the line all the way around the cheese until they cross, and then open (spread) your arms to pull it though. If you tried to just reach past and straight pull though the cheese? It would jump into your lap!
Wrapping all around and pulling will keep it just where it is with no trouble.
So with this, you would set the height you wanted to cut the wheel, and wrap the wire around the top frame, which would keep it smooth and even, and pull through the cheese.
Then lop up into even wedges.
Voila, you have a nifty, even looking retail display of cheese wedges!
yours Scott
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Scott, thank you, I believe we're totally on the same page. That's the exact conclusion I came up with. I appreciate your validation and interest to help out on the solve. I replaced the original board with the slab of oak, when I received the piece the original board had been replaced with a couple thin pieces of pine that were ugly and weak as can be.
I wish you a Happy New Year.
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Hey jpalex, I do have a question.....
I see the adjustment wheel connected to one rod underneath though the bevel gears, which would raise 2 of the sides,
but what raises the other two sides?
Is there another piece and more gears I can't see?
yours Scott
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Good observation Scottg! That's a weird one. That shaft just floats and is turned by the ring going up from the primary gear that elevates from the primary shaft the two vertical arms and gears at the end to match. The other two vertical arms have the same gears that are hidden by the legs. What I'm still a bit unsure of is what locks that ring at any specific spot. If you crank it up and let goes the ring holds, however if you apply pressure to the ring it will almost fall down rather fast at times. I would think if you were pulling a cutting wire across the ring the same thing could happen and you'd end up with an uneven cut.
That was my remaining one lose end to the mystery.
Keep the thought coming.
Thank you.
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The only question that I have now is...... Who?
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I reckon when the table was 'restored' it lost a second bevel gear on the other spindle - that way all legs would be geared..
If you look through the patents for cheese cutters there are those that cut slabs like this one, and those that cut wedges - if you want to prepack cheese to a certain weight, e.g. 1lb, you need to be able to calibrate and repeat the cut in both planes....
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PS Once an object/tool has been identified, can the original person go back to the first post and change the title?? This is common on other what's it and tool forums, and makes future searches easier....
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Sure. The original poster or I can alter the OP to say "Solved" or any other modification such as naming the object.
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Is this possible? Maybe the wire is pulled horizontally through the cheese to form slices instead of wedges. The rim could be set to the desired height and then it would guide the cutting wire across.
But it seems like it would have to be anchored to the table to do that.
Al.
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Is this possible? Maybe the wire is pulled horizontally through the cheese to form slices instead of wedges. The rim could be set to the desired height and then it would guide the cutting wire across.
But it seems like it would have to be anchored to the table to do that.
Al.
Sorry, Al
I have obviously expressed myself poorly - yes the wire would be drawn across the top of the table to cut a slab - that would then be cut into wedges using another (often patented) wedge cutter - it is the combination of the two cutters that gives a uniform wedge of known weight (subject to the density of the cheese being consistent). It maybe possible to add the wedge cutter to a slab cutter, combining both into one 'tool'...
jpalex also came up with the same idea yesterday (I really ought to read all post before replying, not just the last one or two)...
The one in rusty's patent (or rather Owen's patent) has the wire attached to a frame that extends over the cheese (supported through its centre) and the cheese is revolved under the wire...
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I reckon when the table was 'restored' it lost a second bevel gear on the other spindle - that way all legs would be geared..
Looking at the original images again, it also appears to have lost a locking screw from the first support bracket (next to the handle) to allow the rise and fall action to be blocked, thus stopping the table falling back under the weight of a truckle of cheese...
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A locking screw of some sort makes all the since in the world. The weight of the cheese is all transferred to the the base as you set it in the appliance, that would not cause the ring to slip back down, it's the downward pressure of the wire as you pulling it threw that would result in the ring falling down. I would assume it would be a locking screw that was easily set by hand for speed of operation. I got the feeling we're real close! Can anyone tell me how the one poster was able to look up and send be that patent picture so easily, a site to go to look up patents by description??
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Okay, more deep thought. How about this. What's missing is a carrier bearing on the second axle for lack of better words.
The bearing is taped in the center and anther rod comes out of it just like the rod and handle that raises it. That way you'd use the one knob to raise it to elevation and the second knob to lock it in at the elevation you need.
You could then take the cutting wire with the two handles and cut a series of vertical cuts going down to where the ring is locked, making whatever size wedges you want. You could them take the same wire and run it horizontally across and cut the wedges off. You think I may have it?! Now you can cut complete slices and or wedges of you liking and preserve the remained of the cheese round. Getting close, just maybe. The carrier bearing, rod and handle were lost over the years. That would be fairly east to reproduce.
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>Can anyone tell me how the one poster was able to look up and send be that patent picture so easily..
Easily is a relative thing, I have 5 million patents on my computer, using 3800 gigabytes of disk space....
You can download the images from google in bulk if you really want to, but it will take you a while...
Unfortunatly, there are probably around 1600 patents for things about cheese before 1960, and the inventor doesn't seem to have made any other cheese things, so I am kinda stumped so far as to finding a closer match, tho there may be one.....
The best you can do for searching patents online at the moment is google patents
eg: https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts#q=%22cheese+cutter%22&tbm=pts
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Google patents is where I searched - you can also got the USPTO site: http://www.uspto.gov/, and use their search engine which allows more search parameters to be entered, hpwever every time I go there a) the site has changed and b) it has becomes more difficult to find the search page for older patents - Google is much easier to use... DATAMP may also be worth searching: http://www.datamp.org/
Images can often just be saved using right click of the mouse, or use a simple tool like MS's Snipping Tool - failing that use the Save Screen button, paste into Paint and edit from there...
Just playing with Google (it's pouring with rain outside) - you can set search parameters such as date, e.g. 1880 to 1910 - I've tried all combinations of cheese, cutter, table, legs, rise & fall, bevel gear, rack and pinion - as yet no luck...
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Thank you Rusty and Billman49, I'll use your information from now on.
I believe I have closure to the cheese cutter. It's missing a simple short threaded rod and handle is all. It was staring me right in the face. After I figured out the second axle must be an axle missing a brake assembly of some sort I was just about to design and source. I went to measure a bit and low and behold if you look at my second picture you'll notice the bracket that holds the handle on the outside is taped at the bottom. I'm sure that's meant for a short rod and locking handle to exit down just below the elevation handle. With one hand you raise or lower to position you need and with the other at the same time lock it in place so it doesn't slip down as you cut.
GOT IT, we're there, thanks all.
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Now all you need is a big hunk of cheese! Really it is a nice looking device. I could see where it might serve a number of uses around the home. At least a plant stand but maybe you can come up with something better.
Al.
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that would look nice with a glass top and tools on the shelf, now you have a one of a kind coffee table.
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Yah, almost! Don't think I'll be able to talk the wife into that one. It looks pretty nice as a center piece on the dining room table at the moment. Could even stick a lazy Susan on it. Not sure it will be there to long, destined for another location I'm sure.
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is that curved spoke handwheel mounted on a corn sheller thats in the 1st picture ?
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Yes indeed, that's exactly what it is! Why you ask?
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I also have a few corn shellers and it caught my eye, is there a name on yours ?
at the small farm shows, I let the kids shell corn, but you would be surprised at how many
mothers also like to do it. then I have a small corn grinder and let them grind up what
they shelled. I have to find a supply of corn on the cob for this years shows.
at 77 I am slowing down with the shows.
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Well, I beat you to it, I'm starting to slow down at 67! The name on the sheller is Hofherr Schrantz Clayton Shuttleworth, Prima.
It's from Europe. I've been tempted to hook it up to my hit miss engine, it's set up for a belt pulley on the back side. I wish their was more history out here in N CA, good farm shows with old iron are few and far between. Where you hang your hat?
Regards.
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JPALEX, I am in Monson, Massachusetts, a small town in the central part of the state. next town over from
Brimfield, Mass. where they have 3 yearly flea markets on a long strip of Route 20. Rt. 20 runs East to West
from Boston, Mass. to Oregon coast. flea markets run 1 week each of spring, summer & fall. thousands of
people from all over the world show up for these. I am also about 7 miles from the CT border.
I started out showing old one lunger engines, and switched to farm tools & old wrenches with other mechanical
things. as we talk about age, my display that I bring to the shows are getting smaller. I really like researching
the items that I find. hope that you can find some shows, the small shows where you can find time to talk
to the people are the best. it is fun hearing some of the old timers talk about using something that you have
on display, it adds to the history of the items.
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Clayton & Shuttleworth was an engineering company located at Stamp End Works, Lincoln, Lincolnshire, England. The company was established in 1842 when Nathaniel Clayton (1811–1890) formed a partnership with his brother-in-law, Joseph Shuttleworth (1819–1883).
I guess the corn shucker was designed by Hofherr Schrantz (in Germany??) and made under licence by them for sale in the UK and other English speaking countries.. Clayton & Shuttleworth did a lot of export business with Poland, so probably had agents in Germany & Poland - they probably also looked for products that C&S could make back in the UK...
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You're correct on the sheller manufacture. I remember tracking down that bit of info back when I grabbed it. It's an interesting piece, presents itself well. Maybe this year some time I'll get around to getting the correct belt pulley and run it with my little Baker Monitor hit miss engine, the grand kids would love it? Need to inquire around to find out the correct pulley diameter so it turns at an appropriate speed.
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The flywheel looks typical of those found on hand cranked machines, so I'd go for a speed of 50 to 100 rpm - hit and miss engines often idle about 200 rpm - so a pulley twice that of the crankshaft pulley would be about right....
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Thanks for the info. The crank flat belt pulley on my engine is 4.5", so you're suggesting a 9" or so pulley on the sheller?
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12" is just over 75 RPM if your engine runs at 200 RPM.
Chilly
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12", how'd you figure that out so easy?! I was heading toward a 10" or so with the info another post suggested in stating twice as big as crank pulley. I have a habit over the years of jumping to fast to get these projects finished an onto the next, perhaps I better ask all the correct questions up front for a change!
Thanks you for you help and direction.
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12", how'd you figure that out so easy?! I was heading toward a 10" or so with the info another post suggested in stating twice as big as crank pulley. I have a habit over the years of jumping to fast to get these projects finished an onto the next, perhaps I better ask all the correct questions up front for a change!
Thanks you for you help and direction.
The formula for reducing / increasing speed (simple, no load factors) is based on the circumference, or distance around a pulley. If you have a circumference (distance) of 10", and you want to go slower, say twice as slow, you'd double the circumference and need 20" around the outside. Then for every turn of the drive pulley the belt would move 10", the driven pulley would go halfway around.
We don't use circumference, we measure diameter. To convert diameter to circumference we use pi. Pi is the ratio of the circumference to the radius of a circle. To go halfway around a circle it takes 3.1416 radians, or the radius x pi. As we want the entire distance the formula is 2r (pi) or 2 x radius x pi, or d x pi. I use the diameter (d) which is 2r, since we already know that. The thing is, it all works out to a constant. So you don't need pi, or rather because it is a ratio it all works out. I was just including the bs.
You figured it right, to halve the speed, double the pully width. I just used a different output speed. You intuitively knew how to get what you wanted.
To figure the speed difference you divide the input speed by the desired output speed. I chose 75, as the range while the motor is idling can vary. Best to be mid-range to start. If engine is fast, you can handle 33% over and still be within spec. For an un-governed motor, usual minimum is 20% over speed allowance, so it is cool.
So, 200 rpm ÷ 75 rpm = 2.67 2.67 x 4.5 = 12.015, or a 12" pulley.
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You figured it right, to halve the speed, double the pully width.
Pulley diameter!! The width is the axial measurement, i.e. matches the belt width.. (sorry to be pedantic)...
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Thank you all, believe I'm good to go! Now to search out a pulley.
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You figured it right, to halve the speed, double the pully width.
Pulley diameter!! The width is the axial measurement, i.e. matches the belt width.. (sorry to be pedantic)...
Yep, sorry.