Tool Talk
Woodworking Forum => Woodworking Forum => Topic started by: Branson on January 04, 2015, 08:06:43 AM
-
I found this today while researching coopering tools. While I've seen some odd ball planes, I've never seen this before.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Tonnellerie_%C3%A0_Kumrovec%2C_Croatie.jpg
At first this plane standing on it's nose next to the work bench appeared to be a simple jointer, but then I noticed two totes at right angles to each other, and then, looking a little closer, there were two blades at right angles to each other. Just had to share this.
-
Hey Branson,
I've never seen a plane like that before either. It's definitely jointer length. The only thing I can guess is that the irons are perpendicular to each other to form the 90 degree angle. Since the irons are not right next to each other, but rather staggered, so one enters the cut before the other, the irons must slightly overlap each other at the corner of the plane's sole. So, I'm guessing the plane's sole is angled at 90 degrees. With the irons properly aligned and set for a light pass, the plane can probably produce a very nicely finished corner on a workpiece. Or..... The sole of the plane is square, the irons still overlap and the plane was designed to get into the very corner of a workpiece. I'd really like to examine the plane in detail to see how it functions. It's an interesting tool.
Jim C.
-
I don't think it necessarily follows that the blades overlap. In fact, I doubt that they do, since the one most visible is quite narrow. It's my feeling that the maker has got himself two planes in one. Only in a long plane would there be enough stock to have two separate mouths and maintain sufficient strength.
We would have to see the two soles to be sure, though.
-
OK that is the weirdest thing I ever saw.
No idea why it was made.
It doesn't look like the blades extend into the corner, (making it a double rabbit plane).
But because they don't appear to, that makes it even weirder. One jointing blade and the other is for?????????????
Also wondering how you spotted it? The picture is huge, but I am not sure I would have crawled around in it unless you said something.
The planes nailed to the "trammel beams"? (I just made that name up)
was interesting too. Cuts a circle.
yours Scott
-
The "planes nailed to a trammel beam" are cooper's planes for truing up the ends of the staves -- the job usually done by the sun or topping plane. At this point, I've seen several trammelled up (I can make stuff up too) planes to cut the howell and also trammelled up crozes. Even a couple of trammelled up routers to perform the same functions.
How'd I spot it? With the limited real information on 19th Century and earlier stuff, I glean pictures for every conceivable bit of stuff I can find. And I blow up any picture I can (remember the Civil War photo I posted a couple of years ago that showed enough to identify a Merrick adjustable wrench?) . With cooper's stuff I've looked at so much this past year that any odd thing tends to stand out. In this photo I saw a lot of things I recognized, but there are tools that are not cooper's, so I looked harder at them, and this plane really stood out.
-
Maybe it was intended to let the worker go twice as long between sharpening sessions. It is definitely interesting.
Interesting shop all around. I was surprised to see the bench crammed into the corner like that. It would drive me nuts having a wall right next to the face vise.
-
Look closely at the guys hand and how he is holding the chisel. It isn't a working shop it is a display the guy's hand is wooden.
-
Look closely at the guys hand and how he is holding the chisel. It isn't a working shop it is a display the guy's hand is wooden.
Of course not. Too clean for a working shop. :-)
-
I like the plumb hanging level....
among a lot of other goodies.
Chilly
-
I think what we are looking at here is a static museum display assembled from community donated material. Sutter's Fort shops used to look not very different from this. The carpenter's shop had a "work bench" with a 3/4 inch thick top, no vise, set against the back wall. (Utterly useless, like putting the vise end of the bench against a wall. ) The tools in the carpenter's shop and the tools in the cooper's shop were a hodge podge of donated "old timey tools" and included pruning saws, a Stanley #12 scraper/toothing plane, one of those little bench mounted 6" grinders. And manikins, too.
The shop has not been accurately curated. Not surprising, since a curator would have to self-educate to grasp the complexity of the trades and tools. Not many have the time to do so.
A display is wanted, and whoever is in charge wants *a* display now, not a perfect display two years from now.
-
I don't understand the shaving horse. You would sit to the right of the long, squared peg. The clamp is showing through the bottom of the slot and I don't see how the pedal could move enough to raise the clamp above the table.
-
I don't understand the shaving horse. You would sit to the right of the long, squared peg. The clamp is showing through the bottom of the slot and I don't see how the pedal could move enough to raise the clamp above the table.
I'm not sure I understand the problem you see. Do you see that this is a dual purpose shaving horse? The long squared peg to the right of the head is removable. It's only used to clamp a piece -- say a leg for something -- for working. The top part of the head presses one end of the piece against that square peg. When the peg is removed, it works like any other shaving horse.
-
This type of shave horse was used by handle makers - as this one is in a cooper's shop (??) perhap it was used to hold short staves for planing (in French le dolage), although this is more commonly carried out with an axe (doloire) - there is no sign of the long cooper's jointer (floor plane - colombe in French), so maybe the planing was done at the bench...
The double plane could have one flat and one round face, so both the edges and the inside hollow of the stave could be done with the one tool....
This image is of interest as it shows a cooper's jointer held in a bench vice... an alternative method??
-
The horse, barrel head and plane seem to go together for cutting the edge.
-
This type of shave horse was used by handle makers - as this one is in a cooper's shop (??) perhap it was used to hold short staves for planing (in French le dolage), although this is more commonly carried out with an axe (doloire) - there is no sign of the long cooper's jointer (floor plane - colombe in French), so maybe the planing was done at the bench...
The double plane could have one flat and one round face, so both the edges and the inside hollow of the stave could be done with the one tool....
This image is of interest as it shows a cooper's jointer held in a bench vice... an alternative method??
Actually, there is a cooper's long jointer in the photo, just not easy to make out. It's just behind the horse and braced against the wall.
I wouldn't worry about it being a real shop -- it's a museum display that's mostly interested in putting together a bunch of elder tools. As a display, it isn't really set up to really work, but to showcase an accumulation of tools. They have some excellent examples of cooper's tools, and have named the display a cooper's shop because of this. But they've filled it out with other woodworking tools so the display isn't too spare. Plenty to look at.
Did you notice that the barrel is unfinished? The ends of the staves are still square and no howell or croze has been cut.
-
Museums can be like that
One time I was over the hill in Wonder Or, visiting the local museum there.
They had a fairly decent wooden plow plane on display. No blades at all.
But out back in the "shed" were the full set of blades, piled in with horseshoe stuff.
I tried to talk to one of the women, who directed me to the director, a huffy puffy stuffy gassbag of a pretender, who could never believe a museum patron could ever teach him something.
This dildo had things wrong in just about every area of the museum.
I guess his likely "museum curator" degree was mostly about record keeping.
He sure didn't know crap about antiques.
yours Scott
-
I've seen that too many times!
When I had a display of wrenches in our local museum, a friend and I set everything up in a certain pattern that lent to the stories of the wrenches. When we went to see the display after it opened, they had rearranged things in what they considered a "Better" way!
-
Museums can be like that
One time I was over the hill in Wonder Or, visiting the local museum there.
They had a fairly decent wooden plow plane on display. No blades at all.
But out back in the "shed" were the full set of blades, piled in with horseshoe stuff.
I tried to talk to one of the women, who directed me to the director, a huffy puffy stuffy gassbag of a pretender, who could never believe a museum patron could ever teach him something.
This dildo had things wrong in just about every area of the museum.
I guess his likely "museum curator" degree was mostly about record keeping.
He sure didn't know crap about antiques.
yours Scott
Scott,
I agreed with 99% of your post,and had similar experiences, however, as an appreciator of tools, calling this man a dildo, is offensive to a perfectly good tool, calling him an ass or even as woody harrelson might have said, a "dilrod" might be more appropriate.
Regards,
Kris
-
I enjoy visiting museums, and yes, they sometimes have people that do not know what all the items on display are.
but, please remember, today, it is hard for many small museums to get volunteers that have the
knowledge, but they are willing to help out to keep the museum open.
out my way, there are scattered museums that do not get the grants that the big known museums
get.
I was at a museum/display and was looking over an item when an elderly lady came up to me and
asked if I knew what it was and what it was used for, I did and started to explain it to her and she asked me if I could wait for her to get her pen and pad to write it down. she wanted to learn more about what she was in charge of.
we have to honor the people that are trying to save the objects that helped build America.
just my 2 cents, thank you, Frank
-
All of the women at the museum I was talking about were volunteers. And I would have carried every one of them on back if I could. They were wonderful ladies!
But the director was being paid, and desperate to lord it over the women or anyone else in range. A braggart with nowhere near enough to back it up.
The museum is a large old house and outbuildings that were surely donated. Mr puffy stuffy had things in the wrong rooms all over the house. Kitchen stuff in the parlor and bedroom stuff in the pantry. Obviously no clue at all.
When I was younger (much younger) I ran the Happy Camp museum for years.
A private museum belonging to my friend Milt the druggist.
It was an entire town of small buildings. Drugstore, print shop, saloon, sherriff office/jail, blacksmith, fire hall, church, school and more.
Every building stuffed to the gills with antiques.
If I ever got anyone who seemed to know what they were talking about? I tried to pump every last bit of available information I could get out of them!
They weren't always right, but more times than not they were completely right, or they wouldn't have spoke up.
I learned lots of things from the museum patrons.
Nobody knows everything, or even 1/2.
yours Scott
-
My bride has had to stop me several times when I wanted to offer suggestions. The one that I've seen way too many times is a Stanley 45 assembled with the fence backwards.