Author Topic: Cannon repair -- help needed  (Read 4359 times)

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Offline Branson

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Cannon repair -- help needed
« on: April 28, 2012, 07:19:36 PM »
Went to Alcatraz today  to make some repairs on their Civil War period 24 pounder howitzer.  Two goals, one to install the counter hurtlers we had machined to army specs (yep, you can still find them).  Got this done.  Goal two was to drill out the plug that had been used to de-mil the gun so that they can demonstrate working the gun right up to pulling the cord on the primer.

The plug, we were informed, was lead, or at least lead as far as could be seen.  When we got there, all evidence of lead was gone, and about a half inch of vent hole was visible.  So, we tried to drill.  Burned up one standard length 11/64 bit, and two 12 inch long 11/64 bits.  Got down at least another 3/32 of an inch.  That's when one of the rangers said, "Oh.  Yeah.  Somebody got impatient and tried to drill it out himself.  Broke his bit trying."

So I'm looking for some Tool Talk magic here.  What can we use to drill through the broken bit and whatever is under that?  It's about 7 or 8 inches of cast iron cannon until we break through to the chamber.


Offline OilyRascal

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Re: Cannon repair -- help needed
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2012, 07:34:45 PM »
I was recently drilling to tap a thread on the farmall in a very critical area that had previously been stripped out.  Much the same I broke a drill bit off myself as I was trying to drill the hole to tap.

I took a cutoff saw and cut the bit flat where it sheared, gave it a good whack with a center punch, then drilled just inside the broken drill bit.  I burned up 5 bits drilling deep enough to feel comfortable I could get a good bite with a screw extractor inside, and then I stopped.  I used the screw extractor to remove the broken bit from there. 

I'm sure there must be more graceful solutions.


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Offline rusty

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Re: Cannon repair -- help needed
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2012, 07:43:26 PM »
The broken bit is probably HSS , so you need something harder, and there aren't many things harder that aren't also expensive ;P

However, I have had good luck drilling out buts using an ordinary carbide masonary bit. Keep it wet or oiled (water is probably better for cast) and don't push it too hard or it will wander.

Drilling cast iron is a problem in it's own right, it often has sand in it, and it expands while being drilled and grabs the drill. go slow, keep the bit lubed, and expect to use several bits going that deep. ...

If money isn't an issue, diamond point bits are available, they use them for glass and tile, and they will drill HSS , same thing tho, if they get hot, the bonding material will fail. (Masonary bits will fail if the bit gets over 400 degrees as the solder melts and the carbide falls out)

As an aside, it was probably obvious to whomever demilled that thing that all you would need to return it to service is a drill bit, so don't be surprised if there is more to it than drilling a hole...(could be a rock in there, or a hardened steel sliver, who knows)

2c

PS: I hope thay aren't planning on putting much power in this thing ;P
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Offline mrchuck

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Re: Cannon repair -- help needed
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2012, 07:56:52 PM »
Acetylene torch,,, small tip,,,and a small, long thin dia punch.
Heat the hole as hot as you can, then use punch and hammer to drive it thru and into the breech part of the cannon barrel.
I have worked on a "spiked" cannon before.
Molon Labe

Offline rusty

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Re: Cannon repair -- help needed
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2012, 08:01:03 PM »

MrChuck's idea may be agood one..
Now that I think about it,  I seem to  remember, cannon spikes were sometimes wrought iron, which is probably what broke the first fellow's drill. Wrought is close to impossible to drill, it is full of slag....
Just a weathered light rust/WD40 mix patina.

Offline Batz

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Re: Cannon repair -- help needed
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2012, 05:16:30 AM »
I have had this situation many times, well not on cannons but broken drill bits. I use as a small brazing tip on my oxy acetylene and heat just the broken bit and hole, really red hot and then hit it with water. You can then slowly smash up the broken bit with a small hard punch and remove the fragments with a magnet, I magnetize a rat tail file for this. It will take sometime but in these situations.



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Offline Branson

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Re: Cannon repair -- help needed
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2012, 10:32:35 AM »
Mr. Chuck,  how large a cannon were you working on?   I'm a little leery about trying to use heat because this is a 1,200 pound cannon -- one enormous heat sink.  The vent is approximately 9 inches in length. 

There are a variety of methods for spiking a cannon.  The Spanish cannons at the Presidio were spiked by Kit Carson, and he used wrought iron spikes.   The convention of the time.  This cannon was spiked long after the Civil War, but just how long is lost to history, however recent.  At least it wasn't weld.

What most likely broke the fellow's bit was that he wasn't using the right diameter drill bit, so that instead of the walls of the vent as a guide, the bit wandered into the sides of the vent and twisted off.  And that he was drilling too aggressively.

Since somebody else will have to foot the bill, I'm leaning toward either diamond or carborundum bits, and a lot of oil. 

Thanks for all the thought and suggestions!

Offline scottg

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Re: Cannon repair -- help needed
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2012, 11:30:34 AM »
Uh oh, pix will be required for this. At least for me to come up with any helpful ideas.
Drilling out a plug seems reasonable, but why would you drill the cannon?

 Also, do you have anything besides a drill?? torch? Arc welder?
 yours Scott
 

Offline Aunt Phil

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Re: Cannon repair -- help needed
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2012, 11:41:10 AM »
Carbide with a chipbreaker behind it.  Low RPM, steady pressure.
Actually the cheap "hammerdrills" act as a pretty good chipbreaker.

If it was spiked post War Northern Aggression you can figure the job was either done by garrison flunkeys or a contractor, so the spike may well be solder.   
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Offline Branson

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Re: Cannon repair -- help needed
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2012, 12:23:44 PM »
Here are the pix I can find quickly.
First, the actual howitzer we're working on.

Second, another 24 pounder at Fort Pulaski -- Gives a better impression of the mass of the thing.

Third, another at Fort Erie.  Good luck on this one!  No metal plates for it to ride on, and no counter hurtlers to restrict its backward travel on recoil.  Might end up in your lap if fired.

Yep, probably done by garrison flunkies.  At the top of the plug, the metal found was either solder or lead.  By the time I saw it, all this had been removed so somebody could break off a bit in the vent.

Why would we drill out the vent?  'Cause National Parks wants to do demonstrations of how it works, right up to inserting a friction primer and pulling the cord on it.  Plugged vent = friction primer becoming a projectile.  OSHA wouldn't approve...  Lawyers would have paroxysms. 

Offline mrchuck

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Re: Cannon repair -- help needed
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2012, 12:50:11 PM »
Branson, the Hmong had an old ceremonial cannon, 5" bore, French made. They used it to dispel Cong on entry trails. Loaded it with cut up pieces of chain, turnbuckles, Aero-quip cargo ratchets, etc. The Cong spiked it.
I "requed" in claymore mines, urgent, and received a C-119 boxcar full. The cargo kickers hit the mark, the next day.
Claymores cleaned out trails and pathways quickly and efficiently.
The old cannon was placed next to the chieftains hut, along with other aquetriments of a hamlet chief.
Molon Labe

Offline RedVise

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Re: Cannon repair -- help needed
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2012, 03:06:30 PM »
Cannon Repair !!             I'm gonna say it...  you wont find this thread on the other forums !!!

Brian L.


Offline 1930

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Re: Cannon repair -- help needed
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2012, 03:18:59 PM »
Branson, what do you do for work or rather what is your specific occupation, are you retired fooling around with a hobby or are you being paid for this.

BTW package went in the mail on Sat. I hope you enjoy
Always looking for what interests me, anything early Dodge Brothers/Graham Brothers trucks ( pre 1932 or so ) and slant six / Super six parts.

Offline OilyRascal

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Re: Cannon repair -- help needed
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2012, 03:31:23 PM »
Cannon Repair !!             I'm gonna say it...  you wont find this thread on the other forums !!!

Brian L.

I was thinking the same when I first read it, Brian.   Where else would I find discussion of a meat tenderizing concrete tool and cannon repair in the same place?  The forum certainly has multiformity and many points of difference.....which is wonderful so far as I'm concerned.
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Offline Branson

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Re: Cannon repair -- help needed
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2012, 10:29:15 PM »
Branson, what do you do for work or rather what is your specific occupation, are you retired fooling around with a hobby or are you being paid for this.
BTW package went in the mail on Sat. I hope you enjoy

Whatever it is, I'm serious about it.  I've been an artificer with the 3rd US for the past ll years, and I've done a lot of similar work there.  This one's for
glory, pretty much, but I've done a lot over the past 30 years restoring anything from escort wagons, landau carriages and WWI horse drawn machine gun carts.  I once built a full size functional Mexican carretta for a wine advertisement. 

Three years ago I got my wages cut by 36%, and got fired from that last June.  So I've been putting my hands to whatever I can do.  LOL!  The company that fired me now pays me for handyman work and picture framing.  I've done finish carpentry and design for turn of the last century restorations, simple roofing, fence building...  Hard to say what my work is.

Looking forward to that package!