Tool Talk
Woodworking Forum => Woodworking Forum => Topic started by: Branson on March 30, 2014, 10:21:08 AM
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Yesterday I found a cooper's long jointer at a price I couldn't refuse. It's as close to NOS as I have ever seen in a wooden plane -- the edges of the chamfer are crisp and sharp. The real clincher (besides the price) was the D.R. Barton in an oval stamped on the blade. Pictures will come later after No. 1 son wakes up to be conned into taking pics (I'm a terrible photographer).
It's shorter than any at Sutter's Fort at 52 inches over all. Although there are no real indications of use on the sole, it has been modified to work, and there lies my curiosity. A shallow 7/8 inch hole has been drilled into the toe. Expectable. But also, like one of the existing jointers at Sutter's Fort, a notch has been cut (after market) in the back of the plane. The hole I can understand, but why the notch? What system for holding this plane was used? I'm off to the internet to see if it can be found, but thought I'd ask the communal wisdom here first.
The price? It was tagged at $95, but when the shop owner saw I was interested, he said, "I can make that better," and dropped the price to $65. Wallet went into transporter mode and appeared instantly in my hand.
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Wallet went into transporter mode and appeared instantly in my hand.
Been there!!!
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I've only just discovered that coopers stuck the plane to the bench and slid the wood back and forth, so i'm not going to be any help ;P
[How odd...]
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That sounds like a great plane!!! How about a picture or two?
Jim C.
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I've only just discovered that coopers stuck the plane to the bench and slid the wood back and forth, so i'm not going to be any help ;P
[How odd...]
Actually, the long jointers weren't attached to a bench, but were stand alone tools. Some were long enough that a simple stand at the nose end left the back resting directly on the ground. Others, especially those shown in Diderot, were given legs at both ends, though even these were set at a rake.
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Pictures are coming, but N0. One son is down with something flu like, and as I said, I'm terrible with a camera.
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Oh geeze, no pix no pix????
How wide is the blade?
I am not seeing the attachment parts in my mind. A pic will simply have to be taken.
But 65 for a jointer? You really suck! People wanted more than that 40 years ago when nobody wanted old tools!
yours Scott
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Some coopers' jointers were KD for ease of transport. Is there a piece missing, that is locked on with a clamp in the notch, c.f. a kitchen worktop cramp????
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Oh geeze, no pix no pix????
How wide is the blade?
I am not seeing the attachment parts in my mind. A pic will simply have to be taken.
But 65 for a jointer? You really suck! People wanted more than that 40 years ago when nobody wanted old tools!
yours Scott
The blade is narrower than many, at 2 1/4 inches wide. The large jointer at the Fort (the one missing wedge and blade) has an opening to receive a 4 inch blade.
Pictures will come once my camera man gets over the flue. I'll send some vintage drawings and photos that show the attachment stuff.
That's 65 for a jointer with almost no wear, Scott. Crisp corners on the bevels. It would be suckier if I hadn't been keeping my eyes open for one in any usable condition for almost 40 years, but thank you.<g>
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Some coopers' jointers were KD for ease of transport. Is there a piece missing, that is locked on with a clamp in the notch, c.f. a kitchen worktop cramp????
OK, here are some pictures, drawings and vintage photos. The first is the way I've most often seen jointers mounted. A hole drilled into the toe of the plane receives a dowel mounted in an A frame, holding the plane at an angle.
The second two are plates from some 19th Century book. The first shows German cooper's tools, and the notch I've tried to describe is visible. It has a pair of fixed legs rather than the A frame. The second shows Spanish cooper's tools. Here the notch is shown fitted over a stone or a brick of some sort while the A frame is a forked branch.
Something I didn't expect is a metal cooper's long jointer, with an angle iron A frame. Jim C, want to chase down the manufacturer of this one?
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By the way, Billman, look at the top row of Spanish cooper's tools. The fourth tool from the right is the Spanish equivalent of the cooper's swift. No wings, but extensions of the top of the plane for grasping with two hands in a pull stroke. I finally noticed this after watching a video of a Spanish cooper where the tool was clearly visible. Interesting variation. I might try to make one to see how well it works.
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I guess you have answered your own question, the notch appears to be used with a block to change the angle of the jointer....
Ref the two handled swift, I have seen lots of images of planes like this - I just need to remember where.....
Update: just found this link: http://thomasguild.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/the-medieval-toolchest-plane-part-15.html
It's a medieval type of plane...
Aahh this tells me where: http://thomasguild.blogspot.nl/2011/10/medieval-toolchest-plane-part-1.html
Le Musée d'Outils à Troyes in France
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http://thomasguild.blogspot.nl/2011/10/medieval-toolchest-plane-part-1.html (http://thomasguild.blogspot.nl/2011/10/medieval-toolchest-plane-part-1.html)
Those reference some really unusual tools!
The standard coopers swift I usually see in books, has handles on each side like a spokeshave, only with a heavy wedge set plane blade in the middle. The handles are often raised like a travisher.
I have wanted a "good" one of these for years and never found any except one rather pitiful 20th century example I got from Scotland one time.
I once saw a wooden plane, same as any regular wooden jointer plane, except it was 45 inches long! It had about a 3" blade in it too. Not a coopers floor jointer, it had a standard tote to be used against stationary wood.
I wasn't sure what it was for so, I asked around. Finally John Walters (of the famous Stanley book) came up with it. A tankmakers jointer plane for making wooden tanks. A special order tool but available once upon a time.
I wanted it bad, but the antique shop I found it in was too proud of it.
yours Scott
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I guess you have answered your own question, the notch appears to be used with a block to change the angle of the jointer....
Ref the two handled swift, I have seen lots of images of planes like this - I just need to remember where.....
Update: just found this link: http://thomasguild.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/the-medieval-toolchest-plane-part-15.html
It's a medieval type of plane...
Aahh this tells me where: http://thomasguild.blogspot.nl/2011/10/medieval-toolchest-plane-part-1.html
Le Musée d'Outils à Troyes in France
Billman scores again!!
I think the notch and block act more as a stop against the jointer moving with the stave being passed over it than as a means of changing the angle, though. But identifying the plane! Great! Especially since it documents that style for 19th Century France. It seems the Spanish, coopers at least, simplified and strengthened the handles by eliminating the open slot between the body and the handle. At least I have not seen one with open handles.
I'm leaning more and more towards seeing the Spanish coopers as more conservative in their tools, retaining Renaissance and now, even Medieval patterns. Their hammers are nearly identical with those illustrated in De Re Metalica. Now if I can begin to date the divergence of tool sets, the emergence of differing styles of tool...
Really great stuff!! Thank you!
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You'll just have to come over to Europe and have a search yourself - the tool fair at Bièvres, just south of Paris on the 1st of May is well worth a visit, and all those lovely museums as well - not forgetting the reconstruction of a medieval château at Guedelon (they will probably also recreate a coopers shop there at some time)....
and TATHS have just published their latest Journal, Vol 16 - with a print of the 2010 Mark Rees Memorail Lecture by Richard Filmer - titled 'Coopers and Cooperages'.....
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You'll just have to come over to Europe and have a search yourself - the tool fair at Bièvres, just south of Paris on the 1st of May is well worth a visit, and all those lovely museums as well - not forgetting the reconstruction of a medieval château at Guedelon (they will probably also recreate a coopers shop there at some time)....
and TATHS have just published their latest Journal, Vol 16 - with a print of the 2010 Mark Rees Memorail Lecture by Richard Filmer - titled 'Coopers and Cooperages'.....
Where can I fine the TATHS article? I've got a *lot* better chance of looking at that than a trip to the Midi.
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Just checked out the chateau at Guedelon. Amazing! How to build a 14th Century French castle, using only the tools and materials of the 14th Century.
Experimental archeology? I'm all for it.
A whole lot of images -- various stages, various trades used are at:
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ch%C3%A2teau+at+Guedelon&go=Submit+Query&qs=bs&form=QBIR#a
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Not available on line - just in hard copy (only just published) - you can always join TATHS, or track down a US member and ask for a read of their copy when it arrives - failling that, I'll scan or photograph my copy when I have few minutes spare, and send you by PM..
http://www.taths.org.uk/
I visited Guedelon in 2012 - I'd like to go back and work as a volunteer for a couple of weeks, before I get too old to do such things...
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I've never had a long jointer to play with, so maybe this is just lack of experience, though I've never seen a discussion on it. I pulled the blade yesterday, thinking to clean and sharpen it. It was in tight, so I hadn't tried to pull it before. I looked at the bevel on the blade (needs honing more than sharpening) and was amazed at the angle of the grind -- looks like a little under 20 degrees. So I looked at the angle of the bed, and, DANG! It's bedded way below 45 degrees. This is almost a block plane angle.
Wondering if this is unusual or if long jointers are often set at such a low angle.
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Yesterday I fired up my jointer at Sutter's Fort. I used the back stand from the existing jointer that has neither blade nor wedge, and placed the notch against two of the redwood beams (12 X 12 clear) and got a good height and angle. I had brought a couple of stones to sharpen the blade, but looking at it sitting there all ready for use, set the blade and gave it a whirl. To my astonishment, it cut clean and easy without touching it with a stone! It's a delight to use.
I checked the angles of the two other jointers in the shop, and both were set to common pitch, 45 degrees, so this guy is unusual -- a low angle jointer.
Now to design and build a stand that will allow it to be set up as a free-standing tool. Sheesh, how have I managed without one of these?!
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I bet it was originally a homemade jointer.
Setting the blade angle lower is what every newbie planemaker, (including me), naturally does instinctively. The first wooden planes I made were all set low. I can't tell you how many homemade first run planes I have seen at 40 degrees or less.
Everyone does it. Its one of those things you just do. Like making the tip of your tote curl back down (and into your hand, ouch).
A persons brain remembers certain things exaggerated. Its human nature.
The low angles do work great, but do not push knots though! They are fragile.
The lower the angle the less wood behind the blade, where it really needs the support.
That is why experienced planemakers made all wooden planes at 45 degrees or even higher (for more difficult woods).
yours Scott
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I'll keep an open mind on it, but everything I can see looks factory made. The chamfers are perfect, and there are no hand tool marks anywhere. The relieve groove for the head of the bolt for the cap iron is milled in, and looks like it was done with a machine no home made guy would have. The blade and cap iron are D.R. Barton, 1870 to 1890s mark. The one home modification is the notch in the end, clearly hand sawn.
No worries about knots here. Coopering, good coopering, uses only clear, riven stock. No knots need apply.
Works absolutely dreamy. Pulled the blade yesterday and honed it. Works even better now!
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My suspicions are confirmed. Taking time to clean up the beast, I found stamped just in front of the opening for the blade and wedge the D.R. Barton cartouche. It was made low angle at the factory.