Tool Talk
Woodworking Forum => Woodworking Forum => Topic started by: jtc on January 15, 2013, 07:49:23 AM
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Dear fellow tool collectors,
My name is Jeff Cheney. I live in San Francisco, CA. I collect Cheney Hammers, Cheney Anvil & Vises, and cast iron goods made by S. Cheney & Son of Manlius, NY. No, I don't know of any relation to those involved with these companies, but it is fun having a namesake to collect! There have been a surprising number of Cheney companies over the years...
No, I don't know of relation to Uncle Dick either...
I've created a site about the Henry Cheney Hammer Company: http://jtc.net/hchc/
I hope that others find the information that I've gathered useful.
Jeff
P.S. Thanks, Papaw for creating this forum!
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Glad to have you here! Welcome to Tool Talk, Jeff!
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Hi Jeff! Welcome from Alberta. I don't recall ever seeing a Cheney tool.
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Welcome & Aloha from Hawaii... Great site!, now I have a better understanding of the Cheney Brand... lets see more of your collection!
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Welcome to Tool Talk from Oklahoma
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Dear fellow tool collectors,
My name is Jeff Cheney. I live in San Francisco, CA.
I've created a site about the Henry Cheney Hammer Company: http://jtc.net/hchc/
I hope that others find the information that I've gathered useful.
Jeff
P.S. Thanks, Papaw for creating this forum!
Thanks for that Cheney site.
We hope you keep it up.
Its the accumulation of that kind of dedication that collectively is a huge benefit to all of us.
Thanks.
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Thanks for the warm welcomes and kind words about my site!
I added a page for my Cheney Riveting Hammers (http://jtc.net/hchc/riveting/).
It was a discussion about a Cheney riveting hammer in the Blacksmithing and Metalworking forum that lead me to this site. I'm glad that it did! Besides finding a great place to spend time online I found a vital clue to the history of the company -- its 1925 purchase by the Prentiss Vise Company. I had suspected this, but it was confirmed thanks to evidence pointed out by member rusty.
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Thanks for posting a link to your site, it's very well done with lots of good information. I'm a ways up north and along with some of our other members I have never seen any Cheney tools up this way. It's guys like you that make this site what it is. A big welcome from northern British Columbia.
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Thanks, gibsontool! Your praise is very rewarding.
I don't know if I started something or not, but there's now a beautiful Silver King Cheney Nailer (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CHENEY-NAILER-Hammer-Mint-Never-Used-Silver-King-/190785911284) going for over $400 on ebay! The seller is very nice and gave me permission to use the photos on my site. FWIW, most, but not all, of the hammers pictured on my site are in my personal collection.
Update: It's back down to $100. Turns out it was a joker who ran it all the way up to $5,400 before retracting his bids...
Update II: It sold for $405.00! That's by far the highest price I've seen for a Cheney hammer.
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jtc, Enjoyed your web site. Very well done! I have a customer in FL who also collects Cheney hammers. I believe he told me he had about 500 of them. I sell him every one that I get...which isn't much anymore. I only had one this last show, and one the show before. And that one didn't have a handle. I intend to tell him about your site when I see him in Feb.
I did find a small ball peen in an antique mall in Little Falls one time two years ago. Most of the ones I've found have been in NY, which is what I would expect. I have never had any as nice as the ones you have on your site. Keep up the good work.
Mike
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Thanks, Mike! With all this encouragement I'll probably spend more time than I should working on the site. ;-)
500 Cheney hammers?!? Wow! I only have a couple of dozen so far. I gotta meet your friend in Florida!
Jeff
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Terrific site. Well put together, good graphics, and loads of information.
I'm curious though, about one thing. I do understand that the Cheney nailers and the history of the wire nail. One I have is a rather typical bell face hammer. But I picked up a plain faced Cheney nailer some years ago that was clearly designed to hold cut nails. It's the only one I've ever seen. Do you know anything about such hammers?
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I'm curious though, about one thing. I do understand that the Cheney nailers and the history of the wire nail. One I have is a rather typical bell face hammer. But I picked up a plain faced Cheney nailer some years ago that was clearly designed to hold cut nails. It's the only one I've ever seen. Do you know anything about such hammers?
That sounds like Henry's 1871 Patent, known at the Cheney Patent Nail Holder. It has a slot beneath rather than on top of the claws, e.g.
(http://jtc.net/hchc/images/cheney_patent_nail_holder.jpg)
Does yours look like this?
If not, please provide a more detailed description and if possible pictures. Thanks!
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I'd love ya even if your first name was "dick" ...... cheney.... did I spell that right?
Anyhow I'm glad you've joined this community. We'll love having you and hopefully you'll love having us!
cheers,
bird..
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Thanks, bird! Yes, it's Cheney, which I pronounce chee-knee in the hopes that it will be spelled correctly. Doesn't always work...
It's dangerously close to politics, which I understand is verboten here, but I do enjoy mentioning Uncle Dick from time to time. It always catches people's attention -- and keeps them guessing. ;-)
I do love this forum and its members! I found a couple of vital clues here that helped me unlock the history of the Cheney Hammer Company. And the feedback I've gotten has been tremendous -- spurring me to spend way too much time digging through old newspapers for scraps of information. I've easily doubled the number of entries in my timeline just since I joined this forum!
Jeff
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>Does yours look like this?
>If not, please provide a more detailed description and if possible pictures. Thanks!
It isn't this one. I've never seen one of the 1871 patent hammers. I'll see if I can find it and get pictures, but it's set up just like those for wire nails except the cut out for the nail head is larger, to accommodate the thicker heads of cut nails, and the end of the nail head slot is relieved to accept rose head cut nails -- the ones with the lump on top of the head.
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It isn't this one. I've never seen one of the 1871 patent hammers. I'll see if I can find it and get pictures, but it's set up just like those for wire nails except the cut out for the nail head is larger, to accommodate the thicker heads of cut nails, and the end of the nail head slot is relieved to accept rose head cut nails -- the ones with the lump on top of the head.
The picture I posted is of a Cheney Patent Nail Holder -- based one Henry's 1871 patent.
Now you've got my curiosity peaked!
There are definitely lots of Henry Cheney Hammer Company products not listed in the 1904 catalog, which is just about the only reference available. I'd love to catalog all that I can find!
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... One I have is a rather typical bell face hammer. But I picked up a plain faced Cheney nailer some years ago that was clearly designed to hold cut nails. It's the only one I've ever seen. Do you know anything about such hammers?
I can't put my hands on the one I have, but I've found three others on the net. The first two are for sale in Australia:
http://www.toolexchange.com.au/Hammers-Claw.html
The third is on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-CHENEY-Little-Falls-ball-bearing-nail-holding-hammer-massive-2-lb-size-/350699027650?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51a74a7cc2
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Branson,
I think I see what you mean -- the slot is more of a cross than a T. These look like Cheney Nailers to me -- I can see the ball bearings. I read somewhere else that Cheney hammers may have been produced in Australia under license to a company named Cyclone. Which might explain the differences in the shape of the slot.
BTW, if it's true that Cyclone produced these under license, then it must have happened under Elmer Mulford's watch (1925-1954). Everything I've read about the company before then indicates that the majority of their products were exported, probably due to tariffs supported by the steel trust (I need to learn more about this). One article said that half of their output went to Australia!
Another thing to note, it appears that the Nailer feature was so popular that they added it to almost all of their carpentry hammers, e.g. the No. 944 ripping hammer. It seems that this wouldn't work nearly as well given that the sharp ends of the claws would probably contact the surface before anything less than a 16d nail -- and even then it would be close.
Yet one more possibility is that these are Stirrup brand hammers, produced in Germany by a company named Picard.
Jeff
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I used to think the Cheney hammer was a simple subject. Not so, apparently.
Looking at the list of claw hammers at:
http://toolexchange.com.au/
I find #2871 made by Cyclone
#2850 made by Flag Brand
#4755 made by Gedore
#2824 is listed as made by Cheney, Australia
#6449 is listed as "Original Cheney"
#1795 listed as Cheney USA
Numbers 4308, 4896, and 2872 are listed as simply Cheney.
Maybe some of our Aussie members can shed some light here -- there's a lot of territory to cover, it seems.
A number of tools have been made in Australia on patterns from elsewhere. (There's a Ford factory in Gelong, Victoria that makes cars that don't look like any Fords I know, just to confuse the issue.) When I was in Oz back in 2006, I picked up a Stanley pattern marking gauge made by Simplex -- parts interchange with American Stanleys.
Cyclone is an Aussie manufacturer, but what about Cheney, Aus? And where were Gedores and Flag Brands made?
I'm fairly certain that my straight face was made in the US. I picked it up years ago at a flea market in Sacramento.
All those I enumerated above have that cross shaped slot, and it seems to me that this style slot is only useful to accommodate rose head cut nails.
Were such nails still much used in Australia in the 20th Century? I haven't found any of this style of slot among the bell faced Cheneys.
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>Ford factory in Gelong, Victoria that makes cars that don't look like any Fords I know
Ford in Au is one of the most convoluted, bizzare, complicated, weird company histories you will ever read ;P
Au had fairly protective tarriff's , just like the UK, so making things under licence would be much more attractive than importing them, as intended. Not surprising so many tools show up with notably familiar patterns.....
Wonder if Cyclone was making axe's etc also?
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I have Photo copy of Cyclone's 1961 catalogue and a 1964 wholesale price list. At that time they were making a range of tradesman's tools from claw hammers ( no Cheney's listed) to garden tools including axes. (hatchets and belt axes under licence from True Temper Cleveland. Positive lock adjustables under licence from J H Williams Buffalo )
Branson, Cyclone's "nail holder type" has a T style slot, I've always believed that they were for starting flat headed case nails, where "positioning" is not so critical
Graeme
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Branson,
You've opened a big can of worms! ;-)
I'm starting to think that these are knock-offs rather than licensed products. It's interesting that Cyclone called their's a "Nailmaster".
The Gedore is marked "Made in Germany" and its slot looks just like the one on Picard's. Perhaps they merged at some point?
Searching for "Flag Brand" is a nightmare...
I'm not convinced that Cheney made hammers in Australia, but I keep learning something new about the company every day...
The shape of the slot seems to be the key difference between these hammers. I made a quick sketch:
(http://jtc.net/hchc/images/nailer-slot-shapes.gif)
Jeff
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I agree Cheney USA didn't make hammers in Australia but they were made (by Cyclone under licence?) and sold here under the Cheney name. I have found an Australian Dunlop Industrial catalogue (1980s ?) that lists both Cheney nail holder and cyclone nailmaster hammers and BOTH have Cyclone stickers on the handles!? The shape of the slot of the Cyclone nailmaster hammer in my 1961 Cyclone catalogue is more like the Gedore/ Piccard?
Graeme
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Jeff,
I see the same configuration patterns. But :-) ... A few observations:
All those that have the cruciform cut out are plain face hammers -- without any exception I have seen so far. The bell faced hammers all seem to have the standard T shaped Cheney cut out. (When did the bell face take over? The plain face seems to have dwindled and died. Might be a clue...)
The cruciform slot also appears on #1795, #4896, #4308, #2291, which are identified as Cheney made. #1795, in fact, says specifically Cheney USA.
#8924, identified as Cheney, has a big opening like the Flag.
I still wonder why the cruciform shape. It would seem that making that shape would require more machining than the T shape (so why do it?) and that the force of the blow would be delivered to the edges of the head, not a good idea in my thinking. To accommodate finish nails perhaps? I dunno.
If the Aussie Tool Exchange is to be trusted, and they seem to be careful and accurate, there's still much we don't know.
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Branson,
The older I get, the more I realize how little I know. The only thing I know for certain is that I have a lot to learn.
Somewhere out there must be other Cheney Hammer catalogs. I've seen one listed from 1912, but that's probably not much different than the 1904 catalog. I found a 1952 Garehime & Boone Hardware Co. catalog that lists five different models -- Nos. 39 1/2, 43, 937, 398, and 944 -- but that's all.
For now, I'm still digging through the NY newspaper archives on Old Fulton Post Cards.
Jeff
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Branson,
The older I get, the more I realize how little I know. The only thing I know for certain is that I have a lot to learn.
Jeff
I call that a happy attitude -- having more to learn, I think, keeps one young. There's always new knowledge to gain.
I wrote to the Tool Exchange folks and tossed the question back to them of what's with the cruciform slot, and why does it only show up on the plain face hammers. We'll see if they can give us any answers.
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>Ford factory in Gelong, Victoria that makes cars that don't look like any Fords I know
Ford in Au is one of the most convoluted, bizzare, complicated, weird company histories you will ever read ;P
Au had fairly protective tarriff's , just like the UK, so making things under licence would be much more attractive than importing them, as intended. Not surprising so many tools show up with notably familiar patterns.....
Wonder if Cyclone was making axe's etc also?
I really enjoy the history in this thread on Cheney hammers and what was behind it all -- amazing research from the OP I am impressed.
Also
Sorry don't mean to change from hammers to Fords but Victoria was mentioned and in the Mid (approx) fifties the Ford Victoria was introduced by Ford. Was this model produced in Australia or was it just a cool name Ford attached to the model? Sorry again but really interested in the Ausralian relationship with ford. :)
edit: I did a little research and found that the first Victoria was made in the thirties so it is probably not associated with the comment I quoted SORRY for the diversion from the original intent of this thread.
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Wasn't the Victoria one of the Fords made in Canada?
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Wasn't the Victoria one of the Fords made in Canada?
I'm not sure. The discussion about the Australian hammer factory just triggered a memory of the Victoria. But I should have asked in a new thread sorry --- This thread on the Cheney Hammers is very interesting
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Branson,
>I call that a happy attitude -- having more to learn, I think, keeps one young. There's always new knowledge to gain.
And there's yet more to be gained by sharing this knowledge -- we learn from each other.
>I wrote to the Tool Exchange folks and tossed the question back to them of what's with the cruciform slot, and why does it only show up on the plain face hammers. We'll see if they can give us any answers.
Please ask them about the Flag Brand! Any clues would be helpful.
Jeff
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Ietech,
>I really enjoy the history in this thread on Cheney hammers and what was behind it all -- amazing research from the OP I am impressed.
Thanks! I was frustrated when the only descriptions I could find were three or four sentences. The positive feedback I've gotten from this forum has encouraged me to keep digging. Sometimes it's a bit challenging to decide what to leave out and what to keep in. There's lots of fascinating history around the people involved and the times they lived in.
Jeff
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Checked it on line. Yes, the Victoria was a Ford made in Canada.
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Checked it on line. Yes, the Victoria was a Ford made in Canada.
Thanks Branson I thought in might have been mmade somewhere other than the USA ---