Tool Talk
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: leg17 on September 20, 2014, 12:32:19 PM
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Anyone know what sizes were offered in the Smith Perfect Handle 660 Improved Screwdrivers"
I have seen 3, 4, 5, 6.
Is that all?
Thanks in advance.
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The 1920 H. D. Smith catalog that Roger Smith reprinted doesn't show a 66o series.
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Sorry. For those not familiar, check this example.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121441262547?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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I have two, but they are the same length and size.
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Anyone know what sizes were offered in the Smith Perfect Handle 660 Improved Screwdrivers"
I have seen 3, 4, 5, 6.
Is that all?
Thanks in advance.
Dad had a #3, overall length 8 inches -- It brought $20 on his 1994 dispersal auction.
The 660 series would have been late in the game -- the shape matches patent no. 1,677,572 applied for in Dec. 1926 & granted July 1928. So production would only have gone on a very few years -- assuming that most of the product line died along with the company after the crash of 1929.
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Bump
Anyone seen anything other than 3, 4, 5, and 6?
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a # 12 660 just sold on eBay , Cliff
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No help from me. One of mine is a 3 and the other a 4.
Mike
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The only one that I have is a #4
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a # 12 660 just sold on eBay , Cliff
Can you give a link?
I missed it.
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Sorry for the delay. Here is the link.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-H-D-SMITH-NO-660S-PERFECT-HANDLE-12-FLATHEAD-SCREWDRIVER-WOOD-HANDLE-/321580067591?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4adfaa6b07
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Thanks Smokey
I recently saw a 9 sell on eBay.
So far, that is 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 12 seen recently.
Guess I need to keep digging!
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Hello,
I'm new to the group. I stumbled onto it during a web search asking the same question as is posed here. I have a 3, 5 and 6 HD Smith 660. I'd like to find the others to complete a set as well. Oh, and any more history on the company associated with the time period of these tools also.
I have several of the other HD Smith Perfect Handle tools from the earlier years, but I'd really like to learn more about what the company produced different during the 1911-28 or beyond time frame.
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Welcome to Tool Talk, Gunpilot!
H D Smith went out of business around 1929-30. The Perfect Handle wrench design was taken over by Trimont Mfg. Co.
Look here for a PDF of a reproduction of the last H D Smith catalog- http://www.scribd.com/doc/29774833/H-D-Smith-Catalog-PDF#scribd (http://www.scribd.com/doc/29774833/H-D-Smith-Catalog-PDF#scribd)
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Welcome to Tool Talk, Gunpilot!
H D Smith went out of business around 1929-30. The Perfect Handle wrench design was taken over by Trimont Mfg. Co.
Look here for a PDF of a reproduction of the last H D Smith catalog- http://www.scribd.com/doc/29774833/H-D-Smith-Catalog-PDF#scribd (http://www.scribd.com/doc/29774833/H-D-Smith-Catalog-PDF#scribd)
Thanks Papaw,
I actually have that catalog in hard copy. I can't recall where I picked it up, probably from eBay several years ago. And I have quite a few of the tools listed in the catalog. But as I'm sure you are aware, the 660 series of screwdrivers aren't listed in that catalog. I assume they came later.
Regardless, I don't know what it is about the Perfect Handle series (especially the HD Smith originals), but I'm just drawn to them. It's an addiction. I'm getting better and will only buy cheap or something I don't have anymore.
What are your thoughts on modifying these by adding modern tips or tool heads? My goal is to restore or preserve the better examples that I have, but for damaged or redundant tools, I plan to modify a few for work bench use.
Thanks for adding me.
Greg
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You are in the right place!
LOOK!!---> http://www.papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=728.0 (http://www.papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=728.0)
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Thanks,
I need to clean a few of mine up and post a picture or two.
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What are your thoughts on modifying these by adding modern tips or tool heads? My goal is to restore or preserve the better examples that I have, but for damaged or redundant tools, I plan to modify a few for work bench use.
Greg
Yeah, you've come to the right place. Scott G has turned some run down PH tools into useful things of beauty!
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Hello,
I have been collecting the tools in the HD Smith & Co Catalog No. 25, printed in 1920, for 12 years now.
(I have a reprinted catalog you see now and again on Ebay, not an original catalog.)
I believe someone had asked if they really made all they tools in their catalog.
I believe they did. Iffy on their #2 and #2-1/2 sizes on a couple of their screwdrivers.
It's been 12 years of serious collecting now, and I haven't seen them yet.
Anyway, in addition to the other tools listed in their #25 catalog (I'm only missing a few now!),
the discussion was on their lines of screwdrivers, so here goes:
In the New Improved "Six-Sixty" (#660) Screwdrivers (CIRCLE S on the shaft), I have the :
#3
#4
#5
#6
#7
#8
#10
#12
(Not really sure if they made a #2 or #2-1/2)
In the Original "Six-Sixty" Winged (#660) Screwdrivers (WINGED cross hatching on the handle), I have the :
#3
#4
#5
#6
#7
#8
#10
(I am sure they made a winged #12, just haven't seen it yet)
(Not really sure if they made a #2 or #2-1//2)
(They also made another "Six Sixty" Winged (#660) with smooth wings (no cross hatching). I assume to reduce cost.
In the Regular Screwdrivers #609 (no size stamp on the tip), I have the :
#2
#3
#4
#5
#6
#7
#8
#10
#12
(Not really sure if they made a #2-1//2)
In the Regular Screwdrivers #609 (WITH size stamp on the tip), I have the :
#2
#3
#4
#5
#6
#7
#8
#10
#12
(Not really sure if they made a #2-1//2)
In the Machinist Screwdrivers #610 (Square shafts), I have the :
# 9-1/2
# 10-1/2
(They only offered 2 sizes in their catalog)
In the Tobrin #30 Regular Screwdrivers, (Tobrin bought out the screwdriver line from HD Smith Co when HD Smith Co closed down), I have the :
#2
#3
#4
#5
#6
#7
#8
#10
#12
(Tobrin does not list the #2-1/2 as being made in their catalog)
Tobrin #30 screwdrivers look the same as HD Smith #30 screwdrivers, except for the Tobrin logo.
In the Tobrin #31 Machinist Screwdrivers (Square shafts), I have the :
#7-1/2
#8-1/2
#9-1/2
#10-1/2
(They offered 4 sizes in their #30 catalog/pamphlet)
Tobrin #31 screwdrivers look the same as HD Smith #30 screwdrivers, except for the Tobrin logo.
Hope this helps the original poster or any others.
Thanks
Rich
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How about a picture or two of the Tobrin no. 30 and 31. I'm not familiar with them.
Mike
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Thanks Smokey
I recently saw a 9 sell on eBay.
So far, that is 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 12 seen recently.
Guess I need to keep digging!
I wonder if the 9 was actually a 6 viewed upside down?
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I have several 660s, but not sure if any are the ones you need.
You certainly have a large collection of then!
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So, perfect handle is a style of wooden handle treatment.
Are Smith's the only 'true' PH?
or are other brand tools with the same style handle in the Perfect society?
Do I really need to be saving all these Coe's with that handle style?
Skip
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So, perfect handle is a style of wooden handle treatment.
Are Smith's the only 'true' PH?
Skip, the answer is yes. Smith tools are generally marked "Perfect Handle" on them somewhere. The other tools with wood scales are usually called a knife handle or perfect handle style.
Whether you save your Coes wrenches or not is up to you. I probably wouldn't keep the common ones, but 6 in., and 18 in. and 21 in. are not as frequently found, especially the two larger sizes.
Keep your eye out for the Smith Perfect Handle 24 in. pipe wrench. These are rather rare, I have had exactly one.
Mike
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"I wonder if the 9 was actually a 6 viewed upside down?"
For reference and clarification for HD Smith #609 screwdrivers, the numbers stamped into the screwdriver tip are viewed correctly when the wooden handle is pointed down and the tip of the screwdriver is pointed up and indicates the straight (untapered) shaft length from the point where the smaller taper on the shaft ends (where the shaft taper starts to widen to fit the handle) and the very tip (working end) of the screwdriver (the side where the stamped number is)
So a number "6" #609 regular screwdriver would have an overall length of the entire tool of 11 5/8", but only a 6" Untapered shaft part.
(I assume this was to help people [like cabinet makers] determine how far into a hole the screwdriver would work in?)
Yeah. Yeah. Haha much less confusion that way :shocked:
Hope this helps a very confusing area for us all :grin:
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I guess that makes sense, but I know that modern screwdrivers are identified by the tip size.
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I just got a #3 off Ebay for $5.99, but was not happy with the $6.99 shipping and handling. I also bought the pliers with the strange logo from the same seller and asked about combined shipping and got no response. He then shipped them together in a First Class envelope!
I know he only paid about $4 to mail the envelope.
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My six-sixty is a winged type #5.
Are all H. D. Smith tools of that type considered to be Perfect Handles?
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My six-sixty is a winged type #5.
Are all H. D. Smith tools of that type considered to be Perfect Handles?
Yep.
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I guess that makes sense, but I know that modern screwdrivers are identified by the tip size.
Good point.
I've done a lot of research with the HD Smith Co, and during the researching, I crossed some information that dealt with the sizing issues not being consistent between different nut and bolt makers from this time period. So a bolt from one maker would not necessarily fit the nut from another maker. HD Smith & Co was part of the group who set about "standardizing" these things (HD Smith was partnered for a time with Clark Brothers Bolt Co if I remember correctly).
At the time, (as seen on HD Smith Open ended wrenches icon), HD Smith & Co "tool sizing" method was certainly different than today's standards. For instance, your papa's HD Smith wrench icon has a stamped number on it. The number might be 3/4 let's say. For the HD Smith Co, this indicated the 'Bolt' size the wrench was for (not the 'Nut' size the wrench fit on). So although the actual opening of the wrench measured 1-1/4", the wrench is stamped 3/4.
I haven't located yet the actual "Why" the HD Smith company marked their wrenches this way, but I did locate several nut and bolt company's size charts from that time frame (it was part of the paperwork submitted for the standardization group trying to come up with a method for US universal size standards for hardware nuts and bolts), which listed their own individual companies nut and bolt sizes, which do vary greatly among the various companies.
Knowing that, I guess at the time those screwdrivers were made, standardization hadn't set in yet. For all of the HD Smith 609 and 660 screwdriver series, there were only 3 shaft diameters used (1/4", 5/16", 3/8"), so the actual screwdriver tips (widths) were limited in how narrow or wide the tip could be once the shaft was stamped with the drop hammers forming the tips. This is the only way, in my mind at least, that I can see for using the shaft length as a size, and by doing so would allow them to sell more than just 3 sizes of screwdrivers.
Anybody here have any reference material on the sizing practices of the time period? I would love to learn more about it.
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How about a picture or two of the Tobrin no. 30 and 31. I'm not familiar with them.
Mike
They are extremely similar, but the the major difference is the HD Smith circle (trademark) with the size number inside it on the screwdriver tip was replaced with the Tobrin triangle (trademark) with the size inside it.
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About size markings, at least for fasteners and wrenches, read this- 5 - Size
Standard Markings
Note: In the United States prior to 1929 the sizes stamped on wrenches usually referred to the diameter of the bolt not the actual opening size. Thus a wrench stamped ½ U. S. would actually have a 7/8" wrench opening size as a nut for a ½" diameter U. S. Standard bolt would measure 13/16" across the flats and allowing for 1/16 clearance would require a 7/8" wrench opening. This same size wrench would also fit nuts for 5/8" hex cap screw and bolt and nuts for 9/16" S.A.E Standard Cap Screws and thus would be marked ½ U.S, 5/8 Hex Cap, and 9/16 SAE. Carl Bolt's website page on tool standards pictures 17 wrenches with 19 different identifications and sizes all marked 1/2"! This could get pretty confusing so circa 1929 the American Engineering Standards Committee specified that wrenches should be marked with the actual width across the flats of the nut or bolt head they would fit.
From http://www.wrenchingnews.com/wrench-logos/logos-page-1.html (http://www.wrenchingnews.com/wrench-logos/logos-page-1.html)
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About size markings, at least for fasteners and wrenches, read this- 5 - Size Standard Markings
Note: In the United States prior to 1929 the sizes stamped on wrenches usually referred to the diameter of the bolt not the actual opening size. Thus a wrench stamped ½ U. S. would actually have a 7/8" wrench opening size as a nut for a ½" diameter U. S. Standard bolt would measure 13/16" across the flats and allowing for 1/16 clearance would require a 7/8" wrench opening. This same size wrench would also fit nuts for 5/8" hex cap screw and bolt and nuts for 9/16" S.A.E Standard Cap Screws and thus would be marked ½ U.S, 5/8 Hex Cap, and 9/16 SAE. Carl Bolt's website page on tool standards pictures 17 wrenches with 19 different identifications and sizes all marked 1/2"! This could get pretty confusing so circa 1929 the American Engineering Standards Committee specified that wrenches should be marked with the actual width across the flats of the nut or bolt head they would fit.
From http://www.wrenchingnews.com/wrench-logos/logos-page-1.html (http://www.wrenchingnews.com/wrench-logos/logos-page-1.html)
Thanks for the info! Perfect !
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You will find yourself visiting The Wrenching News often. The owner, Bus Haury is a Tool Talk member also.
And- If wrenches are in your range of research, check out Alloy Artifacts- http://alloy-artifacts.org/ (http://alloy-artifacts.org/)
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... (HD Smith was partnered for a time with Clark Brothers Bolt Co if I remember correctly)...
The Clark Brothers Bolt factory was about 3/4 of a mile from the HD Smith factory.
Same town, Southington CT, different villages, Milldale (Clark Bros.) and Plantsville (HD Smith)
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Answer to the original question - 2, 2 1/2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12. I bought a #5 in a box of old tools at an estate auction. BTW I am new here. Hoping to resurrect this thread. See attached
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I have some of the sizes.
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Bob, the 660 series were never catalogued, that we know of, which is what makes the sizes so hard to determine. It’s possible they followed the same sizes as the regular ones...or not, hard to tell without catalog information or someone’s really large collection.
They seem to be less common than the regular PH ones. For those who are interested, I below listed the 660 patent, and the regular SD patent second.
No. 1,677,572 on July 17, 1928 by L.V. Walkley
No. 1,170,709 on February 8, 1916 by W.S. Thomson
Mike