Diagonal pein hammer on eBay

[keykeeper]

Chilly,

I know they do. I've been blacksmithing for several years. I'm just stating what I believe it to be.

Of course, it may all be in how we look at the pein and describe it....does the /  or \ describe looking at it head on, or how it is oriented when in use???

The hammer picture I attached, is the hammer in the auction link.

It is a right handed diagonal pein, in my opinion.

But, what do I know, I'm just another anonymous person on the internet that has been blacksmithing a ~few~ years.

[Branson]

I'm struggling to understand what really makes it a right or left hand tool.  Holding the piece differently would seem to make it ambidextrous.

[Twilight Fenrir]

This is right handed, I thought??? But really, depends on what you want that pein to do....draw or fan across the width of the piece. Argument can be made that both can be used by a right hander.

Nope, that's a leftie... If you hold it with the pein facing down, and you're looking to draw it out, that hammer would have to be held in the left hand...

I suppose you COULD use it as a righty in that way... But I think you'd be better served with a cross pein in that instance... It aounds uncomfortable, but I'm not sure... Never used a diagonal before. Would love to find one.

When I get home, I'll make a sketch and post it to illustrate.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Okay, here's a *rough* sketch. All images assume the pein is pointed downward for use...



So, as you can see, the cross pein requires your hand to be either straight over the work, or at 180 degrees to draw it out. Neither are terribly comfortable.

The straight pein works at 90 degrees, which is definitely more comfortable for drawing out, but still a little off ergonomically.

The diagonals, however, match how we would naturally hold our piece for maximum comfort while working. And, now you can see orientation on them, again, if the pein is pointed DOWN towards the work. The angle in my sketch is a little extreme, but it gets the idea across.

You COULD use a left diagonal in your right hand if you wanted the pein parallel to the work to spread it instead of draw it, as mentioned.  I have seen combination diagonals before. Where it is a righty on one face, and a lefty on the other, allowing you the use of both in one tool.

[keykeeper]

Personally, I think the designation of right hand or left hand diagonal pein is misleading. I believe after some further research that it is simply a moniker as to the way the pein leans, and nothing else, and has nothing to do with the users hand.

Otherwise, why would anyone want a combination left/right diagonal pein hammer?? Peins on a diagonal only serve to make certain operations easier, and it varies from piece to piece as to what is comfortable and when.

Twilight, I have to know, are you self-taught or have you served an apprenticeship under a master?

It wasn't that long ago you were gathering all the tools of the trade.

I've been teaching myself for the last eight years, and everyday I wake up breathing is a new learning day, for me. I try to keep and open mind about all things blacksmithing.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Personally, I think the designation of right hand or left hand diagonal pein is misleading. I believe after some further research that it is simply a moniker as to the way the pein leans, and nothing else, and has nothing to do with the users hand.

Otherwise, why would anyone want a combination left/right diagonal pein hammer?? Peins on a diagonal only serve to make certain operations easier, and it varies from piece to piece as to what is comfortable and when.

Twilight, I have to know, are you self-taught or have you served an apprenticeship under a master?

It wasn't that long ago you were gathering all the tools of the trade.

I've been teaching myself for the last eight years, and everyday I wake up breathing is a new learning day, for me. I try to keep and open mind about all things blacksmithing.

You've definitely got a point. A tool is for what you use it for. I've always seen them referred to as left/right diagonals. I can't think of any other thing to call them that would offer a clue to orientation otherwise... Heck, I always get front-slash and backslash confused! XD  But left and right handed I can wrap my head around the mechanics of.

I am apprenticing with a master... but he's a bit scatterbrained, so I am largely self taught. I apologize if I come off as a 'know it all' He who has a little knowledge the best fool makes. And I know that's very true of myself. So please do tell me when I'm wrong. I am still learning. Everything I say is just to the best of my knowledge... I haven't even been at it a year yet.

I'm still wrangling up tools as I come to need them... But, I think that's true even of people who've been doing it for a decade :P It's nice being able to make a lot of them, though. I'd love to find a power hammer, even though I really don't want to use it at this point... It's important to me to be able to do everything by hand, and not rely on power tools. I really want to become skilled. Not just capable of producing things.

[Billman49]

Heavy double ended diagonal (or twist face) hammers (left & right) were still are used by saw doctors to remove kinks from large (mainly circular) saw blades...

Available from: http://www.sharptool.com/products/Hammers.htm

[Branson]

The right hand/left hand drawing works, but the idea suffers if you are fullering the width rather than the length.  Don't you think?

[Twilight Fenrir]

The right hand/left hand drawing works, but the idea suffers if you are fullering the width rather than the length.  Don't you think?

Maybe so... But I didn't coin the term. To the best of my knowledge, there is no other means of distinguishing between the two. If you have examples of an accepted alternative, please enlighten me. Otherwise, this is the way I THINK is most common, and the reasoning behind it presented for others who don't realize there is a difference to be made.

And, I know text doesn't convey intent well, I didn't mean any of that snidely. I'd welcome being corrected. I've just never seen anything to the contrary.

[gibsontool]

 Too rich for me. I'm out.

[Billman49]

Looking at Twilight Fenrir's drawing above, I would agree that for a right handed person, working single handed, i.e. without a striker, a diagonal pein hammer is ergonomically better than either a straight of cross pein.... Most power hammers have the anvil at an angle to allow the work-piece to pass through its length - for hand forging a similar action across the face of the anvil would be permitted with a diagonal pein hammer.

To answer Branson's point, you would only need to change from a RH to a LH hammer to work across the width, assuming the same stance at the anvil...

[keykeeper]

Like I said, I think the designation is only to note which way the diagonal is laying when you look at it. To me, a diagonal with the top laying to the left side, when in my right hand, would strike in a perpendicular manner to the anvil face. Great for drawing the length of a rod or bar.

Likewise, a peen on a diagonal the opposite way (top laying to the right, when looking at it straight on) would put that peen on a parallel to the anvil face when standing normal....great for fullering the rod or bar to a wider dimension.

To those who have never hit hot steel, this probably sounds like a bunch of gobbley gook, but to me, after eight plus years doing this as a hobby, it makes perfect sense.

Twilight---Sorry if I came across strongly. Didn't mean to. Just very passionate about blacksmithing, and want anything I see or read about it on the internet to make sense and not mislead anyone.

As to the power hammer, I'm still trying to find one myself. Definitely a bonus to have if you can afford one. I'll probably just enlist the help of a buddy and build one myself.

[Chillylulu]

Really, both of you are correct.

Keykeeper, it is a designation. If you go to buy one new you would get the one you want by telling them right or left.

And, I know that you are largely self taught, but like I said, there is a method of using a cross pein thst makes it the best tool for the job. As a self taught person, who is very passionate about smithing,  you have an opportunity to find out what this method of using a cross pein is.   You may even like this method.

The use of handedhess in this tool has to do with ergonomics and how you can see the work.  Here is my best (although silversmith) explanation. (I welcome correction. I only claim 85% accuracy, and my life has been a series of course corrections. Constantly adjusting.)

If holding a piece with your left hand, with your arm held a natural way your fist  in front of your you and lined up somewhere in the vicinity of your centerline, the pein lines up straight in front of you.

Here is my rough drawing (excuse my art, I am an engineer, after all)




Dimensions are to scale (measured off of me. I just ate, by the way. Nevermind the last one, Mrs. Chillly says I am a little thicker.)


The fact that any tool can be used in other ways does not affect the truth that there can often be, sometimes a little less obviously, a very good method for which the tool was intended.  This is one of those.  The double cross peins are simply made for everyone.  You can imagine that lefties are rarer.

I think that both keykeeper and twilight show great knowledge and passion about smithing. I for one, would like to see some of their work. I imagine it is pretty cool.  And, hey, we haven't seen any if Branson's work lately, have we?

Sincerely,

Chilly

Edited to add the following picture:

[leg17]

Agreed Chili
That would be designation seen in a tool room or machine shop as well.

[Chillylulu]

Agreed Chili
That would be designation seen in a tool room or machine shop as well.

Thats my thought, but I am only 51 vs 49 percent certain. Looking at the listing picture vs my diagram, it looks as if it is a right handed pein ( like key pointed out)

I called it a left handed pein based on current companies advertisements for peinedness.  I feel my picture is right, but maybe not. If my picture is correct, than I was wrong in calling it a left handed pein.

We need a ruling or concensus.  Branson? Twilight? Keykeeper?

Chilly